# Ferguson, MO **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 12, 2014, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354 "2014-08-12T04:51:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 166
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2014, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3301 "2014-11-27T17:02:38Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Oddly, no-one has claimed any of those things. > \<_excerpted below_\> > Perhaps you should look at the actual claims being made, rather than the rantings of your pet straw men, before posting again. Perhaps you should read just the last few pages of this very simple thread before you expect anyone to accept your interpretation of the volumes of evidence given to the GJ. For instance: > [@](#): > > 1. No-one’s claimed the autopsy alone shows that. The autopsy shows all the shots that hit him hit the front of his body, and the audio recording of the times of the shots shows there would have been no time for him to turn around. The autopsy was cited as a direct response by [**Morgenstern**](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=17930515&postcount=3208) (even [after correction](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=17930878&postcount=3221)) to **Hentor** ’s suggestion that Brown might’ve turned around in response to being shot at by Wilson. (Also [**Grumman** appears to think the physical evidence \*proves \*Brown could not ever have been fleeing from Wilson prior to shots being fired](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=17930201&postcount=3183).) > [@](#): > > 1. No-one’s claimed we know he was charging, and his intention is entirely irrelevant. [**Terr** believes a charge is “the only explanation” supported by the evidence.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=17927428&postcount=3020) Brown’s intention _as surmised by Wilson_ is absolutely relevant and is a logical extension of the provocative claim that ‘Brown charged at Wilson.’ > [@](#): > > 1. Forensic evidence was taken from the weapon, and forms part of the evidence given to the grand jury. After Wilson bagged the damned weapon himself, after retaining it on his person without supervision for some time. This seems to be OK with the “well fingerprints are unlikely” crowd. > [@](#): > > 1. See 3. The forensic examiner chose to take DNA evidence rather than fingerprint evidence from the weapon because of the low likelihood of finding fingerprints on the rough surface of the weapon. Said rough surface would be likely to abrade the skin of someone grabbing it, and so increase the likelihood of there being DNA evidence there. No shit about the fingerprints. Not my point though. There’s a process for collecting and controlling evidence. It was not properly followed. This is a big problem being hand-waved away by folks like, well, _you_ **Steophan**. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2014, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3302 "2014-11-27T17:08:32Z")
If disposing of this case were Mr. McCulloch’s main interest, he could hardly have failed. All he needed was four grand jurors with sufficient doubt, and “no bill” would have resulted. If eight of the twelve jurors were convinced that a jury trial was needed, their opinions are submerged in the minority view. Of course, if eight of the twelve were convinced that no such action was appropriate, the result would have been the same. This convenient mechanism also allows apologists for the Ferguson PD to claim that the grand jury has spoken, as if they were a singular entity with one unanimous opinion, and we are not to know otherwise. We are not _permitted_ to know. Also, I find his insistence on personal control of the proceedings highly suspect. He cannot possibly have failed to realize that his reputation in the community was a problem, a problem he could have erased by recusing himself. Which he adamantly refused to do, opting instead for the transparent ploy of sending his subordinates on his behalf. While reaping the benefit by a public appearance announcing the result. In the nearly inconceivable event that the result had gone otherwise, he would have only needed to shove his subordinates onstage with a canned statement and pour a big bucket of plausible deniabililty all over himself. Stinks. Got a nickel says Mr McCulloch is fielding phone calls encouraging him to seek a wider position in Missouri state politics. The “(D)” after his name is a minor matter, and can be easily dealt with. Got another nickel says it will be. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2014, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3303 "2014-11-27T17:19:59Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Also, I find his insistence on personal control of the proceedings highly suspect. Two female prosecutors had “personal control” of the proceedings. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2014, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3304 "2014-11-27T17:36:48Z")
> [@CannyDan](#): > > As I said way back in [Post 3050](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=17927874&postcount=3050), the problem with this whole mess, and the relevance of **Hentor** bringing up instances of conflicting evidence ( **Hentor** , please correct me if I misconstrue your direction) is that _all of this should have been presented in a court of law!_ You know, that place where two vigorous advocates duel, using testimony, evidence, and rhetoric attempting to prove or disprove guilt or innocence, as judged by an impartial group of citizens and while held to the constraints of The Law by a presiding officer. Something called, ahh, what is it – oh yes, a _trial_. That thing that never happened. No, it should not. Cases should only go to trial if there’s a reasonable chance of a prosecution. The grand jury decided there wasn’t such a chance, and based on the summary of the evidence provided elsewhere on this board it’s hard to disagree with them. If there are conflicting witnesses of equal credibility, and no forensic evidence that points to guilt, what purpose would going to trial serve, when the jury would have to acquit? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2014, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3305 "2014-11-27T17:43:28Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > This convenient mechanism also allows apologists for the Ferguson PD to claim that the grand jury has spoken, as if they were a singular entity with one unanimous opinion, and we are not to know otherwise. We are not _permitted_ to know. You keep harping on the concept of jury secrecy as if you think it’s a bad thing. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2014, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3306 "2014-11-27T17:43:41Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > There’s a process for collecting and controlling evidence. It was not properly followed. This is a big problem being hand-waved away by folks like, well, _you_ **Steophan**. How is it a big problem _for this case_? The only thing that could have change if Brown’s fingerprints were on the gun would be more evidence against Wilson’s guilt, and we already have more than enough evidence to show he’s not guilty. Absence of fingerprints would prove exactly nothing. The rest of your post just shows your inability to read for comprehension, so I’m not going to waste further time dealing with it. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2014, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3307 "2014-11-27T17:56:56Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Two female prosecutors had “personal control” of the proceedings. Subordinates. Answerable to him. Are you hoping to imply that he made an active effort to remove himself, on the perfectly reasonable ground of being sensitive to the fact that his reputation among the black community was…flawed, shall we say? A worthy goal, in my estimation, better served by recusing himself, and allowing a special prosecutor, one not beholden to him. He adamantly refused such an accommodation. Have you taken a moment to wonder why? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2014, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3308 "2014-11-27T18:00:39Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > How is it a big problem _for this case_? The only thing that could have change if Brown’s fingerprints were on the gun would be more evidence against Wilson’s guilt, and we already have more than enough evidence to show he’s not guilty. > > Absence of fingerprints would prove exactly nothing. > > The rest of your post just shows your inability to read for comprehension, so I’m not going to waste further time dealing with it. Correct procedure is not dependent upon presumed outcome, indeed, its entire point is that the outcome is _not_ presumed. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2014, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3309 "2014-11-27T18:48:11Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Correct procedure is not dependent upon presumed outcome, indeed, its entire point is that the outcome is _not_ presumed. And that’s relevant to Wilson’s guilt or innocence how, exactly? Unless you have any reason to think procedure was deliberately ignored to obscure or destroy evidence, it’s not relevant to the case. It may be relevant to future training of the relevant people, but that’s a different subject entirely. ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2014, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3310 "2014-11-27T20:32:20Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > No, it should not. Cases should only go to trial if there’s a reasonable chance of a prosecution. The grand jury decided there wasn’t such a chance, and based on the summary of the evidence provided elsewhere on this board it’s hard to disagree with them. > > If there are conflicting witnesses of equal credibility, and no forensic evidence that points to guilt, what purpose would going to trial serve, when the jury would have to acquit? Are you joking, or just stupid? Go back in this thread to the earlier discussion about the standard of evidence needed by a Grand Jury to pass a ‘true bill’. There was plenty of evidence suggesting that a crime may have been committed, and normal procedure for a prosecutor would have been to present only sufficient evidence to indict that ham sandwich. When in the past has any prosecutor – or this prosecutor – allowed hours of self serving testimony from the potential defendant… allowed endless recitations of conflicting eye- and ear-witness testimony… allowed technical evidence and testimony to be related… and _all without cross examination, or direction from the prosecutor?_ If the prosecutor actually believed the case had no merit, he should have put on his big boy britches and said so. Handing it off to the GJ, and then simply throwing every bit of possible evidence at them, like shit against the wall, without actually asking them for an indictment, pretty much guaranteed this result. As I’ve said before. Prosecutors dislike engaging in fruitless prosecutions because (i) it costs money and (ii) not-guilty findings hurt their track record. But Brown’s body wasn’t even cold, or removed from the street, before it was clear that this was going to be a BIG DEAL. A man was dead, under circumstances that aroused suspicion in the minds of a significant number of the members of the community. Any sophomore with a minor in political science would have advised the utmost in transparency in dealing with this situation. Trials, even trials that some may see as having a foregone conclusion, are _public_. The community can watch as witnesses are called, give testimony, and are cross examined. Same for other evidence. Advocates on each side strive to put the best possible spin on the proceedings. At the end, a group of citizens deliberate and provide a final judgment. And, if there is a conviction, the defendant has an opportunity to appeal. This is the process that the community expected to be followed. Contrarily, the deliberations of the GJ are _secret_. No one from the community watched the proceedings. There was no advocate for “The People”. The only advocate was the defendant himself, advocating (apparently at some length and without serious contradiction by anyone present) for the rightness, or at least the legality, of his own actions. His “acquittal” lacks the gravitas of a jury verdict, but has as final an effect. Wilson is off the hook for his actions. Whether this is rightly or wrongly will never be determined with rigor because _there was no fucking trial!!!_ Why is anyone surprised that the community, and people outside the community, see this as a miscarriage of justice? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2014, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3311 "2014-11-27T20:32:23Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Subordinates. Answerable to him. Are you hoping to imply that he made an active effort to remove himself, on the perfectly reasonable ground of being sensitive to the fact that his reputation among the black community was…flawed, shall we say? A worthy goal, in my estimation, better served by recusing himself, and allowing a special prosecutor, one not beholden to him. He adamantly refused such an accommodation. > > Have you taken a moment to wonder why? Because he didn’t think that he needed to recuse himself and resented the accusations that he couldn’t be impartial? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2014, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3312 "2014-11-27T20:46:16Z")
Aw, the poor dear! ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2014, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3313 "2014-11-27T20:47:38Z")
> [@CannyDan](#): > > If the prosecutor actually believed the case had no merit, he should have put on his big boy britches and said so. So what you’re saying is that if the prosecutor had publicly declared from the start that there was no grounds for indictment and refused to submit it to a grand jury, you would be _completely satisfied_ with that action? ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2014, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3314 "2014-11-27T21:02:02Z")
My satisfaction isn’t the issue. The prosecutor serves his community. It is them he is answerable to. And yes, if he thought there were not sufficient grounds for an indictment, he should have said so, and explained his reasoning – and been prepared to be disbelieved. Or he could have sought an indictment (remember that ham sandwich) just so the process could play itself out to the (in his mind) inevitable acquittal in \*a public trial \*where the whole community could watch. Surely, if Wilson’s actions truly were legal and supportable, a public trial with public display of the unbelievable witnesses and the evidence that is so solid as to have convinced so many here, it would convince at least \*some \*members of the community. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2014, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3315 "2014-11-27T21:04:47Z")
> [@CannyDan](#): > > Contrarily, the deliberations of the GJ are _secret_. No one from the community watched the proceedings. There was no advocate for “The People”. The only advocate was the defendant himself, advocating (apparently at some length and without serious contradiction by anyone present) for the rightness, or at least the legality, of his own actions. His “acquittal” lacks the gravitas of a jury verdict, but has as final an effect. The deliberations of any jury are secret, and the prosecutor was there as an advocate for the People. > [@](#): > > Wilson is off the hook for his actions. Whether this is rightly or wrongly will never be determined with rigor because _there was no fucking trial!!!_ Why is anyone surprised that the community, and people outside the community, see this as a miscarriage of justice? Innocent until proven guilty. There’s no need to determine his innocence, as _he is fucking innocent_. That’s what the statement at the start of this paragraph means. It’s not some meaningless platitude, it’s an observation about the way the justice system treats everyone, and how other people should treat them. It has been found that there’s no reason to think that Wilson committed a crime, with a much more thorough investigation than is normal. There should be no trial, as the evidence cannot lead to him being found guilty, according to the people tasked with deciding that. If that’s correct, and having read the summary of the evidence it seems to be, had it gone to trial the judge would not have sent it to they jury in any case. It’s just a shame really the prosecutor didn’t have the balls to do his job properly, and dismiss this case out of hand, on the grounds that no crime was actually committed. Sending it to the Grand Jury seems to have given the charges, at least in your eyes and in the eyes of many others, some sort of false legitimacy. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2014, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3316 "2014-11-27T21:07:43Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > There’s no need to determine his innocence, as _he is fucking innocent_. Considering the disagreement among witness accounts, how on earth can we be certain of this? I can understand doubt, but certainty is pretty incomprehensible to me in this case. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2014, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3317 "2014-11-27T21:09:08Z")
> [@CannyDan](#): > > My satisfaction isn’t the issue. The prosecutor serves his community. It is them he is answerable to. And yes, if he thought there were not sufficient grounds for an indictment, he should have said so, and explained his reasoning – and been prepared to be disbelieved. No reason for him to explain anything. > [@](#): > > Or he could have sought an indictment (remember that ham sandwich) just so the process could play itself out to the (in his mind) inevitable acquittal in \*a public trial \*where the whole community could watch. Surely, if Wilson’s actions truly were legal and supportable, a public trial with public display of the unbelievable witnesses and the evidence that is so solid as to have convinced so many here, it would convince at least \*some \*members of the community. No. It’s absolutely wrong, and immoral, to subject someone to a trial when you don’t believe you can prove their guilt. Not to mention the waste of time and resources that could be used to deal with actual criminals, not people defending themselves. You’re not supposed to be having fucking show trials to placate the fucking masses, that’s a disgusting and utterly discredited idea. If the community are that concerned about justice, they could perhaps take some time to actually study the evidence. If they can spare that time from burning down their own neighbourhood… ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2014, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3318 "2014-11-27T21:10:09Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Considering the disagreement among witness accounts, how on earth can we be certain of this? I can understand doubt, but certainty is pretty incomprehensible to me in this case. Innocent until proven guilty. He has not been proven guilty, therefore _he is innocent_. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2014, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3319 "2014-11-27T21:12:43Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > … If they can spare that time from burning down their own neighbourhood… I understand that you are not an American? Good, then someone else can be ashamed of you. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2014, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3320 "2014-11-27T21:18:05Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I understand that you are not an American? Good, then someone else can be ashamed of you. America wouldn’t have time to spare from being ashamed of you, anyway. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354.md?page=165) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354.md?page=167)