# Ferguson, MO **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 12, 2014, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354 "2014-08-12T04:51:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 169
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2014, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3361 "2014-11-28T17:15:08Z")
One thing is for sure. The Ferguson PD needs a lot more diversity. In this day and age, there’s no excuse for an all-white PD in a half-black community. The same probably goes for the whole CJ system. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2014, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3362 "2014-11-28T17:18:53Z")
So, the Grand Jury were actually given the _correct_ Missouri law? Fascinating. Looks like there was no misconduct, even ignoring the fact that it’s an irrelevant law. It’s laughable that people still think this case should have gone to trial. A prosecutor should not take a case unless he expects to win, that’s basic legal ethics. He was certain to lose this case, and if the judge agreed with the Grand Jury that there was not enough evidence to proceed, the trial jury would not have been called to make a decision either. It’s just a shame that the prosecutor didn’t have the balls to throw this case out immediately. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2014, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3363 "2014-11-28T17:20:39Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > What is a prosecutor supposed to do when he looks at the evidence and concludes that no crime was committed? Recuse himself? Why would he do that? He has no conflict of interest, and it is his job to make these tough decisions. > > Should he have a show trial? Put a person he believes committed no crime under arrest, fingerprint him, make him post bond, etc. just to reward people for becoming violent? > > Then, of course, instead of protest riots there would have been celebratory riots that burned the town to the ground. I suggested he might recuse himself. I don’t recall saying anything like “Put a person he believes committed no crime under arrest, fingerprint him, make him post bond, etc…” A simple upward scrolling will confirm that, unless you prefer the aroma of things pulled out of your ass? Would the assignment of a special prosecutor, one more deserving of the respect of the black community have prevented riotous and destructive behavior? I don’t know, but then, neither do you. Of course, I’m not claiming to know. And, “of course”, you are. If you have a moment, could you submit your Certificate of Clairvoyance for our inspection? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2014, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3364 "2014-11-28T17:23:24Z")
> [@CannyDan](#): > > Unpersuasive rhetoric. Do you believe this is a frequent occurrence at the state or municipal level, or are you ‘just asking questions’? > > Why don’t you cite anything declaring this clusterfuck to be either common or acceptable, let alone both? From your own [cite:](http://reason.com/blog/2014/11/25/grand-juries-almost-never-fail-to-indict) Grand juries rarely indict law enforcement officials. Would you say that this indicates that this is a frequent occurrence? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2014, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3365 "2014-11-28T17:27:09Z")
> [@CannyDan](#): > > There is no judge presiding, to ensure proper application of Law. Would all the ‘evidence’ presented to the GJ have been allowed into a courtroom? Would legal ‘experts’ have been allowed to offer their opinions? Would the ‘finder of fact’ (usually a jury but possibly a judge if the defendant desires) be ‘charged’ properly (meaning had the relevant laws explained and the possible outcomes identified)? (In this case, it seems the GJ was actually given an unconstitutional interpretation of the law governing a highly relevant question, that of shooting a fleeing suspect. Was that the only transgression?) > > There were no vigorous advocates, doing their best to represent their own sides. Thus there were no pointed cross-examinations, whereby the advocates demonstrate shortcomings in others’ testimony. There were no rebuttal witnesses called to refute others’ testimony or evidence. There were no summary arguments nor rhetoric to offer alternative explanations of events. Again, there was no trial. Correct. But, to compensate for that, the level of “proof” needed to indict is WAY less than to convict at trial. If the jury could not even get to “probable cause”, there is no way the trial could have gotten to “beyond reasonable doubt”. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2014, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3366 "2014-11-28T17:34:11Z")
Garner stated that a police officer may be sued civilly under federal law if he shoots a non-violent fleeing felon. It does not say that the State of Missouri must view the same thing as a criminal offense. In that sense, it was a correct statement of the law. ETA: But it is irrelevant. The physical evidence conclusively shows that Brown was not fleeing when he was shot. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2014, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3367 "2014-11-28T17:41:34Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > No, it is pretty demonstrably wrong to tell the grand jury that it is okay to shoot someone for running away. Of course, nobody was shot for or while running away, so while this may be wrong, it’s nonetheless irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2014, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3368 "2014-11-28T17:49:20Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Of course, nobody was shot for or while running away, so while this may be wrong, it’s nonetheless irrelevant. I’ve already tried to explain this to him, but it’s not sunk in yet… Maybe you’ll have better luck. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2014, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3369 "2014-11-28T19:22:14Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Of course, nobody was shot for or while running away, so while this may be wrong, it’s nonetheless irrelevant. **Hentor** likes to make up facts to fit some scenario that he pulls out of his ass. He never lets the actual facts interfere with his theories. ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2014, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3370 "2014-11-28T19:22:33Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > From your own [cite:](http://reason.com/blog/2014/11/25/grand-juries-almost-never-fail-to-indict) > > Grand juries rarely indict law enforcement officials. > > Would you say that this indicates that this is a frequent occurrence? Put those goal posts back where you got them! We were disagreeing about the relative frequency with which prosecutors failed to get a true bill from an empanelled Grand Jury. That frequency remains 11 out of 162,351. These are U.S. Department of Justice statistics. Yes they’re a couple of years old, and no they do not include every state and municipality. Nevertheless, I remain confident that failure to indict when the prosecutor requests an indictment qualifies as ‘infrequent’. The quote you offer above is that of a blogger, without attribution except that it comes from my cite. Were you trying to impart to it the same significance as the Justice Department statistics? If in fact it is a true statement (and you are welcome to provide citations so demonstrating) then we will be left to wonder why that might be. Could it be because in almost all cases the law enforcement official has done absolutely nothing wrong? Or might there be other factors in play? Perhaps the blogger thinks there may be, because the sentence immediately following that one says > [@](#): > > It’s hard to imagine they’d ever indict one if the prosecutor’s allegiances are as evident as McCulloch’s appear to be. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2014, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3371 "2014-11-28T19:30:37Z")
> [@CannyDan](#): > > Put those goal posts back where you got them! > > We were disagreeing about the relative frequency with which prosecutors failed to get a true bill from an empanelled Grand Jury. That frequency remains 11 out of 162,351. Again, those statistics are for Federal Grand Juries. Was this one? You’re comparing apples and oranges. > [@](#): > > These are U.S. Department of Justice statistics. Yes they’re a couple of years old, and no they do not include every state and municipality. No, they do not include ANY state and municipality. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2014, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3372 "2014-11-28T19:30:44Z")
Is a grand jury finding, as in this case, a bar to a future grand jury investigation of the same matter? I didn’t read all the posts in this thread, so sorry if I missed it. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2014, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3373 "2014-11-28T19:36:10Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > **Hentor** likes to make up facts to fit some scenario that he pulls out of his ass. He never lets the actual facts interfere with his theories. I have not made up a single fact, here or elsewhere motherfucker. I defy you to find an example of me doing so, you lying sack of shit. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2014, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3374 "2014-11-28T19:39:37Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > Is a grand jury finding, as in this case, a bar to a future grand jury investigation of the same matter? I didn’t read all the posts in this thread, so sorry if I missed it. No. No double jeopardy, since this was not a trial. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2014, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3375 "2014-11-28T20:20:41Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > I have not made up a single fact, here or elsewhere motherfucker. I defy you to find an example of me doing so, you lying sack of shit. You made up the “fact” that the law was misrepresented to the jury, that the Supreme Court decision wasn’t mentioned, and you continue to claim that Wilson may have fired at Brown’s back. We now know all of those are false, yet you continue to claim them Which makes you either a liar or an idiot. Given the way you respond, my money’s on liar. You know you’re wrong, but you don’t have the balls to admit it. You’re a sad, pathetic troll. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2014, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3376 "2014-11-28T20:22:58Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > Is a grand jury finding, as in this case, a bar to a future grand jury investigation of the same matter? I didn’t read all the posts in this thread, so sorry if I missed it. I mentioned in one thread, I can’t remember if it’s this one, that this is actually a good reason for not going to trial with weak evidence. It’s conceivable that evidence could turn up in the future that would make a conviction likely, so there’s no sense in using the one opportunity at this point. Something else those clamouring for a show trial fail to understand. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2014, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3377 "2014-11-28T20:35:30Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > You made up the “fact” that the law was misrepresented to the jury, that the Supreme Court decision wasn’t mentioned, and you continue to claim that Wilson may have fired at Brown’s back. > > We now know all of those are false, yet you continue to claim them Which makes you either a liar or an idiot. Given the way you respond, my money’s on liar. You know you’re wrong, but you don’t have the balls to admit it. You’re a sad, pathetic troll. You should actually read ALL of your own cites, bitch. It would spare you some embarrassment. ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2014, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3378 "2014-11-28T20:36:24Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Again, those statistics are for Federal Grand Juries. Was this one? You’re comparing apples and oranges. > No, they do not include ANY state and municipality. Now you’re just being stubborn. If you believe that the statistics for states and municipalities are so dramatically different that prosecutors failing to get requested indictments can be legitimately characterized as \ then you’re welcome to bring 'em on. But you can’t. Because they’re not. Hence the joke about prosecutors and ham sandwiches. Sucks to be caught out like that, huh? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2014, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3379 "2014-11-28T20:42:17Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > You should actually read ALL of your own cites, bitch. It would spare you some embarrassment. The only embarrassment I feel is on your behalf. But hey, enjoy your trolling. It’s not a particularly good substitute for thinking, but I suspect it’s all you can manage. Actually, I should probably stop arguing with you. It’s a bit like poking an angry hamster, mildly amusing but ultimately unfair, and if I do it too much I’ll start to feel like a bully. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2014, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3380 "2014-11-28T20:44:48Z")
> [@CannyDan](#): > > Now you’re just being stubborn. If you believe that the statistics for states and municipalities are so dramatically different that prosecutors failing to get requested indictments can be legitimately characterized as \ then you’re welcome to bring 'em on. But you can’t. Because they’re not. Hence the joke about prosecutors and ham sandwiches. Sucks to be caught out like that, huh? So what you’re saying is that grand juries are rubber-stamp panels which exercise no free thought and always deliver whatever indicdtment the government asks for. And you’re upset that this one _didn’t_ and actually did its job? And people call _me_ a “fascist”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354.md?page=168) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354.md?page=170)