# Ferguson, MO **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 12, 2014, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354 "2014-08-12T04:51:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 174
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2014, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3461 "2014-11-30T20:49:36Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > A “no bill” by a Grand Jury proves that there is no probable cause to go to trial. Yes, that is what it is designed to do. Did you clip the actual point of what I said - commenting specifically to someone who feels that the Grand Jury delivered a ruling of Not Guilty - for any specific reason? Anyway, let **Steophan** know that Wilson was not proven Not Guilty in a court of law which is what he seems to think and what I was actually addressing? Ktxbye. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2014, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3462 "2014-11-30T20:51:18Z")
> [@kidchameleon](#): > > I want justice! > > And by justice I mean vengeance. Because I don’t care what reality is, just what fits my opinion. I want a trial. And no strawmen. I don’t think I’ll get both, but maybe in the future you can help me with one of them. Thanks in advance. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2014, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3463 "2014-11-30T20:51:38Z")
> [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](#): > > Cross-examination is everything. For example, discrepancies in his [unmolested statement](http://thedailybanter.com/2014/11/grand-jury-testimony-darren-wilson-told-sergeant-mike-browns-hands/) could have been addressed. > > Do you really not understand how important cross-examination is? It’s so important that many times even in high profile cases a defendant will not be put on the stand at all. > > Of course that’s a real trial where a real prosecutor might actually cross-examine and ask hard questions. > > If you really don’t understand why that’s pretty important, there’s nothing more to say. You are a fucking moron. There’s no need for cross examination as there’s no case to answer. It’s not the case that he’s probably guilty but it needs to be made certain by a trial. There is no case. What about that don’t you understand? There is nothing that could be revealed under cross examination - short of an admission that he didn’t actually fear death or injury, and that wouldn’t happen - that could show guilt. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2014, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3464 "2014-11-30T20:52:55Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > You are a fucking moron. There’s no need for cross examination Funny how you prove projection with two simple sentences. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2014, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3465 "2014-11-30T20:54:06Z")
> [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](#): > > Did you clip the actual point of what I said - commenting specifically to someone who feels that the Grand Jury delivered a ruling of Not Guilty - for any specific reason? > > Anyway, let **Steophan** know that Wilson was not proven Not Guilty in a court of law which is what he seems to think and what I was actually addressing? Ktxbye. No-one, in the history of American jurisprudence, has even been proven not guilty in a trial court. Never. That’s not what happens, and not the purpose of a trial. Are you really this stupid, or are you trolling? Or are you just another dickhead who just wants to see the police suffer, because they won’t let crooks and arseholes go around bullying people? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2014, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3466 "2014-11-30T20:54:44Z")
> [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](#): > > I want a trial. Of course you do. But it was found that there is no probable cause to go to trial. That’s how the system works. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2014, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3467 "2014-11-30T20:55:29Z")
[A prominent legal expert eviscerates the Darren Wilson prosecution, in 8 tweets.](http://www.vox.com/xpress/2014/11/25/7285265/darren-wilson-grand-jury) ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2014, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3468 "2014-11-30T20:55:55Z")
> [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](#): > > I want a trial. Why? We know that the evidence is insufficient to provide a guilty verdict, so what purpose would a trial serve? And don’t pretend that the evidence could prove him guilty. No-one who understands how the justice system works could look at the evidence and decide otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2014, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3469 "2014-11-30T20:56:51Z")
> [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](#): > > But a rigged system that you decried a few posts ago is somehow just now? The cognitive dissonance of you and others when shown what a farce this Grand Jury actually was is precious. So you’re saying that you would _prefer_ grand juries to be rubber stamps. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2014, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3470 "2014-11-30T20:56:55Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Of course you do. But it was found that there is no probable cause to go to trial. That’s how the system works. I have presented evidence that what happened is not how Grand Juries work or are designed to work. Even Scalia agrees with me. That’s why it’s a sham. You can feel free to think this was how it “should” work but that flies in the face of presented evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2014, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3471 "2014-11-30T20:58:37Z")
> [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](#): > > [A prominent legal expert eviscerates the Darren Wilson prosecution, in 8 tweets.](http://www.vox.com/xpress/2014/11/25/7285265/darren-wilson-grand-jury) Except none of that is at all relevant. Even if he was lying about every single one of those things, he still could not have been found guilty. The _only_ way, with the evidence we have, that that could have happened would have been an admission that he was not, in fact, in fear of death or serious injury when he fired at Brown. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2014, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3472 "2014-11-30T20:59:52Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > So you’re saying that you would _prefer_ grand juries to be rubber stamps. How about answering my questions first. I’ll repeat them: > [@](#): > > You yourself called a Grand Jury a “rubber stamp.” Why did you do that when this case showed that not to be accurate? > > I assume it’s because you meant that it was because the prosecutor held all the cards. You know, the “ham sandwich” thing we hear so much. The thing that showed you didn’t know how Grand Juries worked. > > I have no doubt that when someone who held all the cards (who could, for example, in an almost unprecedented move get the accused to testify knowing full well that cross-examination was not permitted in that forum) could either build a really nice house from them on a bridge table, or scatter them across the room if they so chose. > > So if the “prosecutor” was in charge of the rules and the defense, then yes, I imagine it might be hard to find a conviction if the prosecutor didn’t want one. > > Do you contend that the situation would be the same with an actual trial? > > The fact that **Steophan** and yourself seem to think that this was the exact same thing as a trial is evidence that the Grand Jury indeed did make a proclamation of not guilty, something it is ill-equipped to do since that’s not it’s job. > > But a rigged system that you decried a few posts ago is somehow just now? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2014, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3473 "2014-11-30T21:01:18Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > …Are you really this stupid, or are you trolling? Or are you just another dickhead who just wants to see the police suffer, because they won’t let crooks and arseholes go around bullying people? Are you getting enough fiber? Did you _seriously_ just accuse someone of wanting thugs to have free reign over our nation because that person _disagrees_ with you? Whatsamatta you? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2014, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3474 "2014-11-30T21:02:00Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Except none of that is at all relevant. Even if he was lying about every single one of those things, he still could not have been found guilty. Or he could have been found guilty. Juries often frown on defendants whose stories wither away and are filled with inconsistencies when under cross-examination. This is why many defendants are not put on the stand. I guess you didn’t know any of this, which is why you don’t think cross-examination (or lack thereof) is a big deal. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2014, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3475 "2014-11-30T21:03:39Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Are you getting enough fiber? Did you _seriously_ just accuse someone of wanting thugs to have free reign over our nation because that person _disagrees_ with you? > > Whatsamatta you? He’s just losing his argument and throwing a tantrum. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2014, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3476 "2014-11-30T21:04:10Z")
> [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](#): > > I have presented evidence that what happened is not how Grand Juries work or are designed to work. That’s incorrect. If there was some illegality or breaking of the rules in how this Grand Jury worked, the opponents are welcome to sue. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2014, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3477 "2014-11-30T21:05:00Z")
> [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](#): > > Or he could have been found guilty. No, actually he couldn’t. That’s the whole fucking point. He literally could not have been legally found guilty by a jury, and any judge who (wrongly) sent the case to the jury would be obliged to overrule a guilty verdict. A jury _may not_ find someone guilty when the evidence doesn’t support it. In this case, there is no probable cause that a crime was committed, so it is legally impossible for him to be found guilty. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2014, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3478 "2014-11-30T21:06:52Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Except none of that is at all relevant. Even if he was lying about every single one of those things, he still could not have been found guilty. I will also add that this is more evidence that you still somehow feel that the Grand Jury could have said he was guilty. They couldn’t have. But you do feel that they can (and did) say he was not guilty. Which they couldn’t have. I’ll chalk this up to you just not knowing what Grand Juries are for and how they usually operate, despite the fact that this has been presented above, and leave it at that. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2014, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3479 "2014-11-30T21:09:12Z")
> [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](#): > > So McCulloch’s plan worked! Good for him! Lousy for justice, but good for him! > > I realize it’s “innocent until proven guilty” but the difference is that a Grand Jury doesn’t prove anything. That’s not it’s point, not what it is designed to do. > > A Grand Jury proves nothing. A trial would have. So what you’re telling me is that if the grand jury had returned an indictment, a trial was held, and Wilson were found not guilty on all charges, you would be _completely and totally satisfied with that verdict_? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2014, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3480 "2014-11-30T21:12:10Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > No, actually he couldn’t. That’s the whole fucking point. So why didn’t it just get the “rubber stamp” treatment then? Anyway, you’re just being an asshole now and I’m done with you. Of course he could have been convicted. And we will never know. Because the sham of a Grand Jury means that he won’t be tried and have the input of people who actually wanted to prosecute and didn’t punt. The fact that you feel that this sham of a Grand Jury means that he couldn’t have been convicted amuses me. I wouldn’t point to a kangaroo court as predictive of what might happen in a real, impartial trial. But you do. I am laughing at you as the last thing I do before I ignore you. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354.md?page=173) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354.md?page=175)