# Ferguson, MO **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 12, 2014, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354 "2014-08-12T04:51:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 175
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2014, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3481 "2014-11-30T21:13:48Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > So what you’re telling me is that if the grand jury had returned an indictment, a trial was held, and Wilson were found not guilty on all charges, you would be _completely and totally satisfied with that verdict_? You ask a lot of questions. I happen to have a good answer to this one in my breast pocket but until you have the courtesy to answer mine, you can pound sand. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2014, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3482 "2014-11-30T21:19:59Z")
> [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](#): > > So why didn’t it just get the “rubber stamp” treatment then? So you’re saying you would have _preferred_ that the grand jury be a rubber stamp. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2014, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3483 "2014-11-30T21:22:27Z")
> [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](#): > > So why didn’t it just get the “rubber stamp” treatment then? > > Anyway, you’re just being an asshole now and I’m done with you. Of course he could have been convicted. And we will never know. Because the sham of a Grand Jury means that he won’t be tried and have the input of people who actually wanted to prosecute and didn’t punt. > > The fact that you feel that this sham of a Grand Jury means that he couldn’t have been convicted amuses me. I wouldn’t point to a kangaroo court as predictive of what might happen in a real, impartial trial. But you do. > > I am laughing at you as the last thing I do before I ignore you. It’s the evidence, or more importantly the lack of it, that shows he couldn’t have been convicted, you fucking ignorant, trolling twat. If there was a reasonable probability of conviction it would have been sent to trial. I love the fact that you think a rubber stamp Grand Jury is a sensible thing, but one that sees all the evidence is a sham. That shows beyond any doubt that you don’t give the tiniest shite about justice, and just want to see as much punishment as possible heaped onto Wilson, despite the demonstrable impossibility of him being guilty. You’re a dangerous, deluded moron, and I can only hope that neither you nor anyone you care about is ever accused of a crime and treated the way you want Wilson treated. Arsehole. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2014, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3484 "2014-11-30T21:26:31Z")
> [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](#): > > He’s just losing his argument and throwing a tantrum. No, that would be you. To paraphrase, “I’m putting you on ignore so I don’t have to deal with being unable to refute your arguments” > [@Terr](#): > > That’s incorrect. If there was some illegality or breaking of the rules in how this Grand Jury worked, the opponents are welcome to sue. But that would require them dealing with facts and evidence, not unsupported assertions and bullshit. It’ll never happen, they’ll just stick to lying on the internet and burning shit down. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2014, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3485 "2014-11-30T23:19:29Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > The point of the exercise appears to me to be just that, to throw any and all such theories into a single spot, without vetting or judgement. Yes, it was. I will find it interesting, though, that some links in the posts I found went to opinions that weren’t written by random Internet users, and they were not addressed by any responses. I will also note that some speculations were dismissed as “conspiracy theories” without any acknowledgement that we KNOW that the police in this country have such a history, current and otherwise, of racism that it creates a context in which such speculations are, IMO, reasonable and justified. One last related thing: one of the rallying cries I this thread seems to be: “how can you distrust the _evidence_?!” I posted on that a little while back, and some of the attitude behind it at times still seems to bespeak to me an ignorance of certain historical contexts and current realities when it comes to race in this country. (I’m really tempted to say “white privilege” here, but I think the way I put it seems more accurate. :)) ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2014, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3486 "2014-12-01T01:52:10Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > …A jury _may not_ find someone guilty when the evidence doesn’t support it. In this case, there is no probable cause that a crime was committed, so it is legally impossible for him to be found guilty. Technically true, perhaps, but theres plenty on record of innocent men convicted. So, perhaps “impossible” is to precious a word to be squandered so. ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2014, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3487 "2014-12-01T01:56:13Z")
> [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](#): > > I want a trial. And no strawmen. > > I don’t think I’ll get both, but maybe in the future you can help me with one of them. Thanks in advance. My comment wasn’t directed at anyone in particular. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2014, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3488 "2014-12-01T05:19:46Z")
> [@kidchameleon](#): > > My comment wasn’t directed at anyone in particular. Right, just people who want vengeance rather than justice. Which is a strawman because I don’t think anyone here feels that wa. Who does? Can you point them out to us? ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2014, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3489 "2014-12-01T05:22:51Z")
> [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](#): > > Right, just people who want vengeance rather than justice. Which is a strawman because I don’t think anyone here feels that wa. Who does? Can you point them out to us? Look in the mirror, scarecrow. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2014, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3490 "2014-12-01T05:28:19Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > That’s incorrect. If there was some illegality or breaking of the rules in how this Grand Jury worked, the opponents are welcome to sue. I never said it was illegal, as you well know, unless you need to work on your remedial reading comprehension. I said - more accurately, I posted experts saying - that the Grand Jury was done in a manner completely at odds with how nearly all Grand Juries operate and was at odds with what their purpose is. That is unequivocally true. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2014, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3491 "2014-12-01T05:29:57Z")
> [@kidchameleon](#): > > Look in the mirror, scarecrow. So it was directed at me? Can’t make up your mind, I see. Well, you can add that to the long list of other things you’re wrong about. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2014, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3492 "2014-12-01T05:36:30Z")
> [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](#): > > I said - more accurately, I posted experts saying - that the Grand Jury was done in a manner completely at odds with how nearly all Grand Juries operate and was at odds with what their purpose is. That is unequivocally true. Ok. Let’s try this. What is the purpose of a Grand Jury? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2014, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3493 "2014-12-01T05:53:34Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Ok. Let’s try this. What is the purpose of a Grand Jury? Let’s try this: How was this Grand Jury completely different than almost every other Grand Jury and why was that? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2014, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3494 "2014-12-01T05:54:52Z")
> [@kidchameleon](#): > > My comment wasn’t directed at anyone in particular. > [@kidchameleon](#): > > Look in the mirror, scarecrow. I’d also like to point out that you’re a liar. Lest anyone ever think you’re not. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2014, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3495 "2014-12-01T06:09:08Z")
> [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](#): > > Let’s try this: How was this Grand Jury completely different than almost every other Grand Jury and why was that? You’re the one that claimed this Grand Jury “was at odds with what their purpose is”. So - what is the purpose of a Grand Jury? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2014, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3496 "2014-12-01T06:21:40Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Ok. Let’s try this. What is the purpose of a Grand Jury? I already linked to [his New Yorker piece](http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/use-grand-jury), but here’s how [Jeffrey Toobin](http://www.newyorker.com/contributors/jeffrey-toobin) would answer this question - the headline is “How Not to Use a Grand Jury” so I think that goes to show it does address how to use it: > [@](#): > > (A)s the atypical grand-jury proceedings in the aftermath of Michael Brown’s death illustrate, there is a great deal to be said for prosecutors following the customary rules of their profession… > > Robert McCulloch, the local prosecutor, had the authority to charge Wilson with a crime; that’s how the vast majority of prosecutions in the area begin. Instead, McCulloch said that he was going to open a grand-jury investigation and, in an even rarer development, present every scrap of evidence produced in the investigation to the jurors for their consideration. > > The grand jury chose not to indict Wilson for any crimes in connection with Brown’s death. In a news conference following the decision, McCulloch laid out the evidence that he believed supported the grand jury’s finding. In making the case for Wilson’s innocence, McCulloch cherry-picked the most exculpatory information from what was assembled before the grand jury… > > But the goal of criminal law is to be fair—to treat similarly situated people similarly—as well as to reach just results. McCulloch gave Wilson’s case special treatment. He turned it over to the grand jury, a rarity itself, and then used the investigation as a document dump, an approach that is virtually without precedent in the law of Missouri or anywhere else. > > reserving this kind of special treatment for white police officers charged with killing black suspects cannot be an appropriate resolution… > > Would Wilson have faced charges if he had been treated like every other suspect in McCulloch’s jurisdiction? We’ll never know—and that’s the real shame of this prosecutor’s approach. And let’s examine what [Supreme Court justice Antonin Scalia says is the “function” of a Grand Jury](http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/11/justice-scalia-explains-why-the-ferguson-grand-jury-was-completely-wrong/): > [@](#): > > (T)he Supreme Court’s conservative firebrand, Antonin Scalia, explicitly laid out the role of grand juries in the 1992 Supreme Court case of United States v. Williams, and it is in stark contrast with what McCulloch did. Scalia wrote:\* > > > [@](#): > > > > It is the grand jury’s function not ‘to enquire … upon what foundation [the charge may be] denied,’ or otherwise to try the suspect’s defenses, but only to examine ‘upon what foundation [the charge] is made’ by the prosecutor. Respublica v. Shaffer, 1 Dall. 236 (O. T. Phila. 1788); see also F. Wharton, Criminal Pleading and Practice § 360, pp. 248-249 (8th ed. 1880). As a consequence, neither in this country nor in England has the suspect under investigation by the grand jury ever been thought to have a right to testify or to have exculpatory evidence presented. > > \*It was only by McCulloch’s inclusion of Wilson’s testimony, that evidence to support these “complete defenses,” was heard. Either McCulloch is completely ignorant of the history of how grand juries work as codified by Scalia, or something more sinister. If you care to lecture Scalia on the function of Grand Juries, feel free to do so. I’m sure he’ll be happy to hear from you. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2014, 7:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3497 "2014-12-01T07:36:31Z")
And the Grand Jury found that there was no foundation on which the charge could be made. After seeing all the evidence. It seems you have a problem with a decision being made after seeing all the evidence, when you think a different one could have been made if only part of the evidence was shown. That hardly suggests that you support justice. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2014, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3498 "2014-12-01T07:38:58Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Technically true, perhaps, but theres plenty on record of innocent men convicted. So, perhaps “impossible” is to precious a word to be squandered so. Indeed. That’s why I specifically put “legally impossible”. There have been innocent people illegally convicted, but there have also been innocent people convicted when there has been sufficient evidence for probable cause. If that evidence exists, then it’s legal for the jury to convict, in the sense that the judge or an appeal court can’t overturn it on the grounds of lack of evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2014, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3499 "2014-12-01T07:51:36Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > And the Grand Jury found that there was no foundation on which the charge could be made. After seeing all the evidence. It seems you have a problem with a decision being made after seeing all the evidence, when you think a different one could have been made if only part of the evidence was shown. That hardly suggests that you support justice. I would point out that this position assumes an implicit trust in the integrity of the evidence, the cops who gathered it, and the prosecutor who presented it. If you’re talking to anyone who doesn’t share that trust in EVEN ONE of those three things (and I personally think that the atmosphere created by past and current corruption and racism has made such distrust reasonable for WAY too many people), then you can talk about the role of the grand jury all you like, but it’s kind of irrelevant to the debate. (To be clear: I’m not necessarily talking about anyone you’ve personally interacted with, in this thread or elsewhere.) ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2014, 7:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3500 "2014-12-01T07:55:49Z")
Then its a pity the court cannot declare Mr. Brown legally alive, it would be such a comfort to his family. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354.md?page=174) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354.md?page=176)