# Ferguson, MO **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 12, 2014, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354 "2014-08-12T04:51:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 21
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/401 "2014-08-14T18:50:27Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > No, the cops are protecting the populace from terrorists. The governor is bowing to political pressure from the pro-terror lobby. Huh. Hadn’t heard an Al-Qaeda/Taliban tie in up till now. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/402 "2014-08-14T18:52:22Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Us? What do you have to do with anything that is not a discussion about who is the most useless poster on the Dope? The one that has the lowest content to word ratio? While I have great respect for **'luci,** I feel I should at least be _considered_ for this honorific. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/403 "2014-08-14T18:55:21Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Would you say that this is true in all cases. For me what works on a calm day in Mayberry, or an ordinary day in an ordinary town, doesn’t necessarily work in, or on the perimeter of a riot zone. Would you agree with that? Seems to me that cops need flexibility. Imagine trying to clear an area of a hundred people and each of the hundred wants to have a debate about one’s constitutional rights, local ordinances and the like. There were two orders here, the order to disperse and the order to stop videotaping. The latter order was illegal. We’d need more facts to assess whether the first order was legal. Assuming the order to disperse was legal, it would be improper to fail to heed the first order just because of the illegal second one. But I don’t understand him to have done that. It’s hard to tell exactly from the video, but from his account I understood him to be getting up and getting his things together while videotaping. Was he maybe a little slower because he was asking questions? Sure. But I don’t think that _de minimis_ delay constituted failure to comply with the order to disperse. But you’re right that context matters. What counts as complying with the order when clearing out a McDonald’s is different from arresting a hundred people in the middle of a riot. But I don’t agree at all with the argument that since this McDonald’s was near the previously nights’ riot area that it makes any difference at all for this arrest. Was there a riot happening outside? Nope. I do think this guy was being a little obnoxious. And the police officer escorting him was pretty professional except for asking him to stop recording. But being obnoxious is not a basis for arrest in this country, and as long as he was moving reasonably quickly to disperse then they could not arrest him on that basis either. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/404 "2014-08-14T18:57:54Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > You can see that the McDonald’s was open in [the photos](http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/13/justice/missouri-teen-shooting-journalists/index.html) Ryan Reilly (the other arrested journalist) posted. Signage on, store employee standing by the counter, etc. > > I don’t know _exactly_ where it is in relation to the rioting, but the reporters were there to type up their pieces so it was presumably pretty quiet. Do we know whether the McDonald’s closed later? It’s likely the cops wanted to clear the patrons out first and then give the employees time to secure the restaurant before they evacuated. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/405 "2014-08-14T18:59:18Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > Huh. Hadn’t heard an Al-Qaeda/Taliban tie in up till now. People destroying public and private property and attacking the police are terrorists. The pro-terror lobby are those who support then over the police who are attempting to restore law and order for the law-abiding people of Ferguson. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/406 "2014-08-14T19:00:15Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > … to restore law and order… We must elect Ronald Reagan! ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/407 "2014-08-14T19:04:40Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > We must elect Ronald Reagan! Reagan did more harm to the country than any president in recent memory by slashing budgets and encouraging people to fear and distrust the government. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/408 "2014-08-14T19:05:58Z")
And yet… > [@](#): > > “Law and order” was a powerful conservative theme in the U.S. in the 1960s. The leading exponents in the late 1960s were Republicans Ronald Reagan (as governor of California) and Richard Nixon (as presidential candidate in 1968). They used it to dissolve a liberal consensus about crime that involved federal court decisions and a pushback against illegal drugs and violent gang activity. White ethnics in northern cities turned against the Democratic party, blaming it for being soft on crime and rioters. So if you think the kind of people elected on the rhetoric you’re using did a bad job, you might want to reconsider that rhetoric. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/409 "2014-08-14T19:08:31Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > And yet… > > So if you think the kind of people elected on the rhetoric you’re using did a bad job, you might want to reconsider that rhetoric. I believe I’m in record as saying that Nixon was the last good Republican. Reagan was never anything other than a corporate shill who, by the time he was president, was more interested in telling people government was their enemy than in maintaining the public good. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/410 "2014-08-14T19:12:03Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Do we know whether the McDonald’s closed later? It’s likely the cops wanted to clear the patrons out first and then give the employees time to secure the restaurant before they evacuated. It’s possible, but the only people talking can’t tell us because they’d been sent to jail. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/411 "2014-08-14T19:12:14Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > I don’t know why you think a reporter would work at McDonald’s. Holy fuck dude, it’s right there in your own cite: “charging cellphones and writing.” Writing is part of the work that reporters do. Did you not know that? ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/412 "2014-08-14T19:14:23Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > When you’re asked, by a cop, to stop videotaping and leave the place, asking “Am I not allowed to videotape the cops” as the reporter did is being a dick. He is not asked to stop videotaping the cops. He is asked to leave, which means stop what you’re doing (in this case, videotaping) and leave. To continue videotaping, while gathering your belongings with one hand, is to continue being a dick. No, it isn’t. You have a legal right to question any authority. The cop has the authority to tell him to pack up and leave (according to Bricker). He does not have the authority to force him to stop taping. That’s something that made it to the Supreme Court. I do see your problem now, though. You seem to think “not doing exactly as you are told by a police officer” means “being a dick to a police officer.” No reporter worth his salt is going to put down his camera unless he absolutely has to. That doesn’t make him a dick. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/413 "2014-08-14T19:18:17Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > It’s possible, but the only people talking can’t tell us because they’d been sent to jail. The McDonald’s employees were sent to jail? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/414 "2014-08-14T19:19:18Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > No, it isn’t. You have a legal right to question any authority. The cop has the authority to tell him to pack up and leave (according to Bricker). He does not have the authority to force him to stop taping. That’s something that made it to the Supreme Court. > > I do see your problem now, though. You seem to think “not doing exactly as you are told by a police officer” means “being a dick to a police officer.” No reporter worth his salt is going to put down his camera unless he absolutely has to. That doesn’t make him a dick. Being ordered by a cop to evacuate would fall into “unless he absolutely has to” for most people. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/415 "2014-08-14T19:21:07Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > You have a legal right to question any authority. Enjoy being in jail for contempt of court until you stop, should you choose to exercise this “right” there. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/416 "2014-08-14T19:22:37Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Holy fuck dude, it’s right there in your own cite: “charging cellphones and writing.” Writing is part of the work that reporters do. Did you not know that? Wow. This is a great four way whoosh of misunderstanding all around. **Sinaptics** posted that > [@Sinaptics](#): > > Cite? The article I read had the reporter working at the McDonalds. I figured this was just poorly phrased and so I made a joke about why a reporter would be flipping burgers: > [@Debaser](#): > > I don’t know why you think a reporter would work at McDonald’s. I should have included a smiley. But it turns out that **Sinaptics** actually thought that the reporter was a McDonald’s employee. > [@Sinaptics](#): > > I assumed he was working part-time as a journalist; only getting paid when an article gets published. In retrospect, I think it was just bad writing. When they said he was working there, they must have meant as a journalist, and not as a McDonald’s employee. Now we’ve got you jumping all over me for daring to question whether a journalist can work as a journalist at McDonald’s. Sheesh. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/417 "2014-08-14T19:26:00Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > As I said, “understandable” does not mean “justified” only if you think that it is not possible for you to behave that way. And then that means that the person you’re talking about is lesser, morally and ethically, than you. And multiple people argued that your definitions are incorrect, and you did not refute them. You may use those words that way, but that’s not how the rest of us are using the terms. Something being justified means it is morally correct. I do not agree that the actions here are morally correct. Even if I am capable of doing the same actions, I still would not think they were morally correct. But I do find them understandable, even if I wouldn’t do the same things. I understand how they feel. I understand how angry mobs can get people to do things that are bad. I understand their position. That’s what it means to be understandable. I just don’t get your mental block here. Why in the world do you think that I cannot understand someone but disagree with them without first judging them as morally inferior? I understand the majority of people and actions I disagree with. It’s harder to disagree with things you don’t find understandable. ---
**Author:** ![Nonsuch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nonsuch/32/2922_2.png) [@Nonsuch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nonsuch)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/418 "2014-08-14T19:27:44Z")
Getting bogged down in discussing whether or not a particular McDonald’s was open for business, or how fast a particular reporter picked up his bag and vacated said McDonald’s, seems to obscure the issues that are outraging so many (but by no means all, alas) of us. From [this link](http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/saw-ferguson): > [@](#): > > What transpired in the streets appeared to be a kind of municipal version of shock and awe; the first wave of flash grenades and tear gas had played as a prelude to the appearance of an unusually large armored vehicle, carrying a military-style rifle mounted on a tripod. The message of all of this was something beyond the mere maintenance of law and order: it’s difficult to imagine how armored officers with what looked like a mobile military sniper’s nest could quell the anxieties of a community outraged by allegations regarding the excessive use of force. It revealed itself as a raw matter of public intimidation. Meeting civilian protests — even protests that have escalated into criminality — with such excessive force is **guaranteed** to make the situation worse. I’ve seen remarks from combat veterans in Iraq and Afghanistan who claim to have conducted themselves with more restraint than the police in Ferguson — and packed a lot less armament to boot. This is atrocious, incompetent police work, and if I were among the law-abiding citizens of Ferguson in whose name these actions were supposedly being taken, I’d be fucking outraged. In fact, I probably WOULD have taken to the streets by now. Not throwing Molotov cocktails: just showing my disapproval of a militarized police force run amok. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/419 "2014-08-14T19:29:12Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > … political pressure from the pro-terror lobby. The what? What in the _hell_ are you talking about? ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/420 "2014-08-14T19:30:47Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Holy fuck dude, it’s right there in your own cite: “charging cellphones and writing.” Writing is part of the work that reporters do. Did you not know that? One more thought on this: You should seriously rethink this attitude. Did you really think, even for a second, that I don’t understand that a journalist could work doing writing or whatever else from a McDonald’s? That’s some serious bending over backwards to assume the worst about someone’s posts. It’s almost a perfect example of the sort of silliness you’d see in the SDMB posting “moves” thread. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354.md?page=20) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354.md?page=22)