# Ferguson, MO **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 12, 2014, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354 "2014-08-12T04:51:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 22
**Author:** ![SmellMyWort](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea5d25/32.png) [@SmellMyWort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmellMyWort)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/421 "2014-08-14T19:32:22Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > You let out what the “5 to 10 minutes later” referred to; > > Once again, people loitering in a riot zone which has been dispersed are shocked to find themselves being subjected to riot dispersal tactics. > > This isn’t rocket surgery - if you insist on standing around with a camera in the middle of a war zone, don’t act surprised when you get fired on. Nice selective reading. The first paragraph of the article says the news crews were set up OUTSIDE a perimeter set up by the police. One journalist moves up to an intersection where demonstrators are fleeing to cover the police detaining someone and he gets shot at with a rubber bullet. He retreats back to where the press is set up OUTSIDE the police perimeter and then the Al Jazeera crew gets gassed. No orders to disperse, not loitering, not in the midst of any rioting or protesting. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/422 "2014-08-14T19:33:27Z")
> [@Nonsuch](#): > > Meeting civilian protests — even protests that have escalated into criminality — with such excessive force is **guaranteed** to make the situation worse. I’ve seen remarks from combat veterans in Iraq and Afghanistan who claim to have conducted themselves with more restraint than the police in Ferguson — and packed a lot less armament to boot. This is atrocious, incompetent police work, and if I were among the law-abiding citizens of Ferguson in whose name these actions were supposedly being taken, I’d be fucking outraged. In fact, I probably WOULD have taken to the streets by now. Not throwing Molotov cocktails: just showing my disapproval of a militarized police force run amok. Your whole premise is wrong, though. It wasn’t a protest. It was a riot. One that had gone on for four days. There was another event over at the police station that was an actual protest and that didn’t have looters and rioting. It was allowed to proceed and the police in attendance were restrained and didn’t do anything. Are you just ignoring these facts? Or did you not read the thread? I know you guys have real strong feelings on this one, but the board is supposed to be about fighting ignorance, not wallowing in it. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/423 "2014-08-14T19:42:30Z")
> [@SmellMyWort](#): > > Nice selective reading. The first paragraph of the article says the news crews were set up OUTSIDE a perimeter set up by the police. One journalist moves up to an intersection where demonstrators are fleeing to cover the police detaining someone and he gets shot at with a rubber bullet. He retreats back to where the press is set up OUTSIDE the police perimeter and then the Al Jazeera crew gets gassed. No orders to disperse, not loitering, not in the midst of any rioting or protesting. So they werent just failing to disperse, they were actively interfering with an arrest? Well, that’s MUCH better. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/424 "2014-08-14T19:43:30Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > The what? What in the _hell_ are you talking about? The people who are defending the rioters and demonizing the police. The pro-terror lobby. ---
**Author:** ![lost4life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c4cdca/32.png) [@lost4life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lost4life)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/425 "2014-08-14T19:44:25Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > So they werent just failing to disperse, they were actively interfering with an arrest? > > Well, that’s MUCH better. Did you have a lot of lead paint where you grew up? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/426 "2014-08-14T19:47:15Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Uh, no. If a cop gives you an unlawful, unconstitutional order, you are permitted to ask him to reconsider without it creating probable cause for your arrest. What “unlawful, unconstitutional” order was given? ---
**Author:** ![PaulParkhead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@PaulParkhead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulParkhead)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/427 "2014-08-14T19:47:42Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > The people who are defending the rioters and demonizing the police. The pro-terror lobby. Just for shits and giggles, could you give your definition of “terrorism”? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/428 "2014-08-14T19:48:20Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Like I said, thats not necessarily what’s going on here but if someone murdered my family and he was captured alive, I would not be justified in killing him but it would be understandable if I did. If you see yourself possibly doing it, you’re justifying it. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/429 "2014-08-14T19:48:56Z")
> [@PaulParkhead](#): > > Just for shits and giggles, could you give your definition of “terrorism”? Acts of lawlessness by private actors with the intent of terrorizing the public and/or the government. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/430 "2014-08-14T19:51:15Z")
My hope is that the events here will lead to a national dialogue about the ridiculous militarization of the police. The federal government has to stop giving tanks and heavy machine guns to police departments. This is another byproduct of our disastrous War on Drugs that needs to be shut down fast. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/431 "2014-08-14T19:52:30Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > My hope is that the events here will lead to a national dialogue about the ridiculous militarization of the police. The federal government has to stop giving tanks and heavy machine guns to police departments. This is another byproduct of our disastrous War on Drugs that needs to be shut down fast. Why? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/432 "2014-08-14T19:54:36Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > No, it isn’t. You have a legal right to question any authority. The cop has the authority to tell him to pack up and leave (according to Bricker). He does not have the authority to force him to stop taping. That’s something that made it to the Supreme Court. This is getting ridiculous. Watch the freaking video. Did he “force him to stop taping”? In fact, did he even attempt to “force him to stop taping”? He told him to stop what he was doing (which was videotaping) and go. That was it. The reporter then started in with the “Help, help, I’m being repressed! Come and see the violence inherent in the system!” shpiel. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/433 "2014-08-14T19:55:25Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I note that you haven’t bothered to address the fact that the reporters were in a McDonald’s - nearby, but not actually _at_ the scene of the riots. Frankly, I’m a little surprised (regardless of the facts) that you take the position that the arrest of a member of the press corps is presumptively okay. I was relying upon this: > [@Debaser](#): > > Give me a break. This is the McDonalds right next to the rioting. So far as I can tell, there is no exception in the unlawful assembly law for a member of the press. As a matter of practicality, of course, police are certainly wise to adopt the position that the press is in an area of unlawful assembly not to participate but to observe, but they don’t have to. The statute any person who refuses to disperse. There might be a First Amendment defense the reporters can offer, but that has nothing to do with the existence of probable cause. Whether or not the McDonald’s was “at the scene” of an unlawful assembly is obviously a question of fact. If **Debaser** is correct, then for purposes of probable cause the police seem safe. The farther away the unlawful assembly was, the less likely the police can credibly claim probable cause existed. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/434 "2014-08-14T19:56:16Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Why? Why what? Why do I hope for a dialogue about the militarization of the police? Or why do I think the militarization is a byproduct of the War on Drugs? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/435 "2014-08-14T19:57:59Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > And multiple people argued that your definitions are incorrect, and you did not refute them. You may use those words that way, but that’s not how the rest of us are using the terms. > > Something being justified means it is morally correct. I do not agree that the actions here are morally correct. Even if I am capable of doing the same actions, I still would not think they were morally correct. > > But I do find them understandable, even if I wouldn’t do the same things. I understand how they feel. I understand how angry mobs can get people to do things that are bad. I understand their position. That’s what it means to be understandable. > > I just don’t get your mental block here. Why in the world do you think that I cannot understand someone but disagree with them without first judging them as morally inferior? I understand the majority of people and actions I disagree with. It’s harder to disagree with things you don’t find understandable. Because the “it’s not possible that I would do the same” is a moral judgment. Unless you’re just saying you’d be too lazy to do it. And I love that in your imagination there is some kind of “angry mob” that is somehow separate from “people” that makes the “people” do “things that are bad”. That’s some bizarre world view there. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/436 "2014-08-14T19:58:09Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > Why what? Why do I hope for a dialogue about the militarization of the police? Or why do I think the militarization is a byproduct of the War on Drugs? Why is such a “dialogue” necessary? ---
**Author:** ![Nonsuch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nonsuch/32/2922_2.png) [@Nonsuch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nonsuch)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/437 "2014-08-14T19:58:19Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > Your whole premise is wrong, though. > > It wasn’t a protest. It was a riot. One that had gone on for four days. My premise is not wrong. **Even if you characterize the events in Ferguson as a riot** , the police response is a) grievously (if not criminally) excessive, b) guaranteed to inflame the situation, and therefore c) actually doing a gross disservice to the people in whose name they are acting. The police in Ferguson are not approaching this situation with the aim of defusing it. They’re attempting to meet force head-on with more force, only to shake their heads with bafflement when the people of Ferguson don’t simply march back into their homes. Do you get it? Whether it’s a riot or a protest or a donnybrook or whatever you care to call it, **the police are not responding appropriately**. Since you seem to feel I’m being hopelessly emotional (god forbid, right?), maybe some testimony from [Veterans on Ferguson](https://storify.com/AthertonKD/veterans-on-ferguson) will prove useful: > [@](#): > > As someone who studies policing in conflict, what’s going on Ferguson isn’t just immoral and probably unconstitutional, it’s ineffective. > [@](#): > > In the USAF, we did crowd control and riot training every year. > > Lesson 1: Your mere presence has the potential to escalate the situation. > [@](#): > > Also, we contained riots in Baghdad next to mosques with less violence than the police are employing. > [@](#): > > A lot of vets, me included, would go to Ferguson and gladly teach some classes on crowd control and patrolling You are fucking it up. I trust these appraisals of the situation more than yours. If you want to continue to write the police a rhetorical blank check for conduct like this, have at it. I find it revolting and disgraceful. And unless cooler heads intervene soon, we may well end up remembering Ferguson the way we remember Kent State and the '68 Chicago Convention: as gross abuses of state power. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/438 "2014-08-14T20:00:38Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > I think if there have been specific and credible threats made against the cop that it’s not unreasonable to protect his name, even though that is almost certainly giving him special treatment. I doubt that George Zimmerman would have been given the same protection, for example. > > That said, I can still see the upside in releasing it. It allows the public to investigate his background. Maybe he’s been involved in three other questionable shootings. Or maybe he’s posted a bunch of racist YouTube videos. Any of that would be relevant to, say, whether the police department should suspend him without pay during the investigation of this shooting, which is something public pressure might result in. But the investigation into the things you mention can just as well be done by the investigators. But even granting your position on the pro side, how do you think it stacks up to the don’t-release-his-name side of the debate? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/439 "2014-08-14T20:01:08Z")
> [@Nonsuch](#): > > I trust these appraisals of the situation more than yours. If you want to continue to write the police a rhetorical blank check for conduct like this, have at it. I find it revolting and disgraceful. And unless cooler heads intervene soon, we may well end up remembering Ferguson the way we remember Kent State and the '68 Chicago Convention: as gross abuses of state power. This is not excessive. Excessive would be gunning down the rioters in the streets by the dozen. These scumbags are lucky the cops have been as gentle with then as they have. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/440 "2014-08-14T20:04:32Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > While I have great respect for **'luci,** I feel I should at least be _considered_ for this honorific. To keep up with him, I think you’d need to get a lobotomy. Either that or just have the part that controls humor removed and then try to go through life as a funny man. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354.md?page=21) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354.md?page=23)