# Ferguson, MO **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 12, 2014, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354 "2014-08-12T04:51:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 24
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/461 "2014-08-14T20:59:03Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > What are the facts or circumstances known to the officer that would cause a reasonable person to conclude that there was a fair probability that the reporter was feigning confusion in order to delay compliance? Please be specific. In the video, at time stamp 0:10, in response to the officer’s, “Let’s go,” the reporter replies, “You see me working, don’t you?” The reporter’s finger appears in the frame, showing he’s not using that hand to do any kind of packing up. At 0:33, he asks the officer if he has enough time to answer the question posed about the car. At 0:37 he again advises the officer that he was working. His hand is still visible, showing he wasn’t packing belongings with anything approaching ordinary urgency. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/462 "2014-08-14T21:00:31Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I fear terrorists and anarchists regardless of what color they are. Life in a free nation requires a bit more backbone that you’ve displayed in this thread. Perhaps the United States is not a good place for you to live. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/463 "2014-08-14T21:01:15Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Why is such a “dialogue” necessary? Because the police are in fact being over-militarized. A US government program called[the 1033 program](http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2014/08/13/ferguson-police-michael-brown-militarization-column/14006383/) has dispensed billions of dollars worth of surplus military goods to civilian police departments throughout the US. The [US Homeland Security department has ALSO handed out billions of dollars in grants](http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2011/12/20/local-cops-ready-for-war-with-homeland-security-funded-military-weapons.html) to police departments, providing police departments with equipment that bears little relation to the amount of violence in their communities or the likelihood of terrorist attacks. SWAT teams have also been used for wildly inappropriate tasks, like raiding frat parties where underage drinking has been reported, or busting a comedian for making a reference to violent resistant in a (humorous) tweet. Many US veteran from Iraq and Afghanistan have said that they used less equipment and less confrontational tactics than those used in Ferguson to handle demonstations in WAR ZONES. Finally, [the CULTURE of the police](http://www.salon.com/2013/07/13/radley_balko_once_a_town_gets_a_swat_team_you_want_to_use_it/) has been slowly shifting from one of regarding citizens on the street from people they are protecting from criminals, to “the enemy.” Interestingly, even Fox News is alarmed by this as shown b[y Fox News’ John Stossel’s piece on the topic](http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2014/07/23/conservatives-libertarians-and-liberals-should-all-worry-about-militarization/) … it’s apparently not a politicized problem, everyone, right left and libertarian, thinks we need to reign in the militarization. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/464 "2014-08-14T21:02:01Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > In the video, at time stamp 0:10, in response to the officer’s, “Let’s go,” the reporter replies, “You see me working, don’t you?” The reporter’s finger appears in the frame, showing he’s not using that hand to do any kind of packing up. At 0:33, he asks the officer if he has enough time to answer the question posed about the car. At 0:37 he again advises the officer that he was working. His hand is still visible, showing he wasn’t packing belongings with anything approaching ordinary urgency. He says “I’m working on it” in response to the first “Let’s Go.” What he says a few seconds later is pretty clearly a reference to his working on getting packed up in that context. Which is consistent with his account of it as well. Otherwise, see my last post. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/465 "2014-08-14T21:02:50Z")
> [@LibrarySpy](#): > > The pro-police-at-McDonalds people are forgetting one thing. No charges were brought. The reporters were let go with no explanation. Therefore, legally, they committed no crime. All this hand-wringing about disobeying a lawful order is nonsense. > > Ergo, what’s left is harassment and assault. Non sequitur. The fact that they were not charged with a crime does not mean that it was not on the interest of public safety to detain them. > [@](#): > > It is true that Al Jazeera was thankful the police helped them regain their equipment, after the police teargassed them and tore it down. Sounds like a warzone to me. Messy. Journalists in war zones shouldn’t act surprised when they get caught in the crossfire. > [@](#): > > **Smapti** shows up to shit in every death penalty thread, and is now being insanely pro-authoritarian in this one. There’s a word for it, but it’s not liberal or conservative. No system of government - liberal, conservative, capitalist, socialist, fascist, or other - can function in the absence of authority. When the government lacks the power to protect the public from people with no respect for the rights of others, the end result is Somalia or Iraq. If that’s the kind of country you want to live in, feel free to move. I like it here in America. ---
**Author:** ![sachertorte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sachertorte/32/3727_2.png) [@sachertorte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sachertorte)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/466 "2014-08-14T21:05:06Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > Serious question for the people arguing that the protesters should comply with the orders by the police in Ferguson: is that always the case? Should Indians protesting British occupation of their country have complied with police orders to not protest, should the Solidarity Union in Poland have disbanded when ordered to by the communist government, should the Prague protesters given up in '68 when ordered to by the Soviets? Years ago I had a colleague (German) who expressed surprise at how Americans view the police. He felt the level of reverence and deference was inappropriate. He assumes this is because we Americans never had to deal with shit like the Gestapo. I think he is right. Personally, I don’t think Americans should have to actively distrust police, but I do agree that a certain level of scrutiny is warranted. I think every police action and interaction with the public should be filmed. Traffic stop? Film it! Arresting someone? Film it! Frankly, the fact that police want cameras to STOP makes me very suspicious. If I were there, I would want cameras rolling to show that I was doing everything right. The only reason I would want cameras off is if I knew things were not right. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/467 "2014-08-14T21:06:25Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > Because the police are in fact being over-militarized… I’m going to Kreskin **Smapti** ’s response to this: If that’s what it takes to maintain an orderly society, then so what? If you don’t break the law, you have nothing to fear, no matter how “militarized” the police become. (I know that wasn’t difficult, but I feel all tingly and Will Grahammy. Profiling!) ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/468 "2014-08-14T21:06:40Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > My cite shows that people were protesting at the police station and the protest was peaceful. Thus there was no harsh response by police. > > My cite also shows that on the same night at a different location there were riots for the fourth night in a row where Molotov cocktails were thrown at police. In this occasion tear gas was used. > > Do you dispute any of these facts? > > What I take from these facts is that the police are responding to force with force, and not just tear gassing any crowd indiscriminately, as posters have been claiming. That’s an opinion, and one that might be wrong, but it is clearly backed up by the facts that we have from the news stories that have been cited. > > You disagree? Fine. You can assume the worst. But unless you have a cite contradicting this I don’t think your opinion counts for much. …I accept your concession. For your assertion to be correct Molotov cocktails would have to have been used on every occasion that police used tear gas. Allegedly throwing Molotov cocktails at another incident is not throwing Molotov cocktails every time tear gas was used. One of the videos I cited was quite lengthy, shot with quite a wide angle, and hadn’t been edited. There was no evidence of Molotov cocktails throwing: the people protesting were standing on their own property, and the police fired a tear gas canister at one of the protesters head, fortunately it missed because he ducked. In all the video footage I’ve seen so far, the lack of Molotov cocktails is particularly telling. I’ve seen a couple of photos of men trying to light Molotov cocktails: (which the reporter states failed to light) and thats it. Your assertion that " It’s when the Molotov cocktails start flying that the tear gas comes out" is wrong, and I’m going to charitably assume this was stated as hyperbole. If you continue to repeat the assertion I’m going to conclude that you are willfully lying. As for the arrest of the reporters: the Chief of Police is already on record as stating that the policeman who arrested the reporters was “probably somebody who didn’t know better” and it took a single phone call from him to get them released. That doesn’t sound to me like the police on the scene conducted themselves appropriately. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/469 "2014-08-14T21:07:49Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > No system of government - liberal, conservative, capitalist, socialist, fascist, or other - can function in the absence of authority. When the government lacks the power to protect the public from people with no respect for the rights of others, the end result is Somalia or Iraq. > > If that’s the kind of country you want to live in, feel free to move. I like it here in America. That is definitely a nominee for “most assholish thing posted in this thread.” Be proud; you have some really stiff competition! ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/470 "2014-08-14T21:08:15Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > I am not persuaded that packing one-handed or asking questions while walking toward the door amount to non-compliance. I doubt there’s much case law here, but I would venture that non-compliance is gonna be pretty contextual, and I very much doubt that in the absence of any real reason to get him out of there in 45 seconds instead of 2 minutes that his conduct could be described as non-compliant. All they need is probable cause. > [@](#): > > AFAICT, there was no unlawful assembly. This McDonald’s was simply near the location of a previous night’s unlawful assembly and the expected location of a future unlawful assembly. Is there any evidence at all that the patrons in the McDonalds could be considered part of a group assembled with the intent to commit violence? I don’t think even **Debaser’s** comment suggests that. They don’t have to be part of the group. They merely have to be present at the scene of an unlawful assembly. Now, if you’re saying that there was not, at the time the order was given, any unlawful assembly at all, then I agree with you. One cannot fail to disperse from an unlawful assembly that does not exist. ---
**Author:** ![LibrarySpy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f9ae1b/32.png) [@LibrarySpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LibrarySpy)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/471 "2014-08-14T21:08:32Z")
You… have zero understanding of how policing works, either as a philosophy or an institution. Wow. Luckily, others do, which is why the Ferguson police have been relieved of their oh-so-properly-conducted duties. > [@Smapti](#): > > Journalists in war zones shouldn’t act surprised when they get caught in the crossfire. So a warzone is your idea of America? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/472 "2014-08-14T21:09:44Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > Because the police are in fact being over-militarized. A US government program called[the 1033 program](http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2014/08/13/ferguson-police-michael-brown-militarization-column/14006383/) has dispensed billions of dollars worth of surplus military goods to civilian police departments throughout the US. The [US Homeland Security department has ALSO handed out billions of dollars in grants](http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2011/12/20/local-cops-ready-for-war-with-homeland-security-funded-military-weapons.html) to police departments, providing police departments with equipment that bears little relation to the amount of violence in their communities or the likelihood of terrorist attacks. Why is being over prepared a problem? > [@](#): > > SWAT teams have also been used for wildly inappropriate tasks, like raiding frat parties where underage drinking has been reported, or busting a comedian for making a reference to violent resistant in a (humorous) tweet. Underage drinking and terrorist threats are both crimes, and both can potentially turn violent. I see nothing “inappropriate” about being prepared for a violent confrontation. > [@](#): > > Many US veteran from Iraq and Afghanistan have said that they used less equipment and less confrontational tactics than those used in Ferguson to handle demonstations in WAR ZONES. And how stable is Iraq these days? I don’t think that’s an example you want to use when talking about how hands off touchy feely law enforcement is so much better. > [@](#): > > Finally, [the CULTURE of the police](http://www.salon.com/2013/07/13/radley_balko_once_a_town_gets_a_swat_team_you_want_to_use_it/) has been slowly shifting from one of regarding citizens on the street from people they are protecting from criminals, to “the enemy.” Criminals _are_ the enemy. Whose side are you on? ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/473 "2014-08-14T21:10:39Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > All they need is probable cause. The level of suspicion is irrelevant to my point. If they have probable cause that he is dilly-dallying but dilly-dallying doesn’t count as non-compliance, then probable cause is moot. I’m suggesting that taking an additional, what, 30 seconds, is not likely to be non-compliance in this context. > [@Bricker](#): > > They don’t have to be part of the group. They merely have to be present at the scene of an unlawful assembly. > > Now, if you’re saying that there was not, at the time the order was given, any unlawful assembly at all, then I agree with you. One cannot fail to disperse from an unlawful assembly that does not exist. Right. Is there any evidence at all that they were “present at the scene of an unlawful assembly” given the definition of “unlawful assembly”? There certainly is no support for that in the video, or in his account, or in the fact that the McDonalds is near a prior scene of unlawful assembly from the previous night. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/474 "2014-08-14T21:11:45Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Your view seems to be that he wasn’t asked to stop recording so much as he was asked to stop everything he was doing and leave immediately and he just happened to be recording. I think the right analysis of the situation turns on (1) whether the order to disperse was lawful and (2) whether he was packing up his things, etc., while still recording. He was - with one hand, while recording with the other (and snarking off at the same time). Delaying, in other words. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/475 "2014-08-14T21:11:56Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > As for the arrest of the reporters: the Chief of Police is already on record as stating that the policeman who arrested the reporters was “probably somebody who didn’t know better” and it took a single phone call from him to get them released. That doesn’t sound to me like the police on the scene conducted themselves appropriately. It equally invites the inference that the Chief’s policy was to allow reporters to work, and not disperse them, even though the law permits him to do so. And “not knowing any better,” refers to not knowing the policy of leaving reporters unmolested. Or, as you say, it could be an admission that there was no legal ground whatsoever. I’d be interested in an actual cite of what was going on outside the McDonald’s when the dispersal order was given. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/476 "2014-08-14T21:14:05Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > The level of suspicion is irrelevant to my point. If they have probable cause that he is dilly-dallying but dilly-dallying doesn’t count as non-compliance, then probable cause is moot. I’m suggesting that taking an additional, what, 30 seconds, is not likely to be non-compliance in this context. For the purposes of probable cause? Dilly-dallying certainly supports probable cause to believe he was not complying. > [@](#): > > Right. Is there any evidence at all that they were “present at the scene of an unlawful assembly” given the definition of “unlawful assembly”? There certainly is no support for that in the video, or in his account, or in the fact that the McDonalds is near a prior scene of unlawful assembly from the previous night. I agree that this is the key point. The unlawful assembly cannot be conjectural. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/477 "2014-08-14T21:14:21Z")
> [@LibrarySpy](#): > > So a warzone is your idea of America? Just Ferguson. ---
**Author:** ![LibrarySpy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f9ae1b/32.png) [@LibrarySpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LibrarySpy)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/478 "2014-08-14T21:14:55Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > and not disperse them, even though the law permits him to do so. Cite for a specific law, not disorderly conduct, loitering, or “following a lawful order” but a specific law that says the press (have to name them as the press) can be dispersed? Something that overrides a right to assembly or a right to a free press? The only thing I can think of is trespassing, which they were NOT charged with, or has even been mentioned, and the President himself, very fucking strongly, and apparently the Chief of Police now, have condemned the arrests as without cause. How is that not enough for you? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/479 "2014-08-14T21:15:53Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > And, as I pointed out, whether I would do it or not has nothing to do with whether I would find it understandable. I specifically worked from both sides. For the Nth time, it has to do with whether “understandable” means “justifiable”. > [@](#): > > Whether I would or would not do the same actions, I can understand why someone else would do them, yet not think they are moral reprobates. You may think so, but “I would never loot and burn stores” is explicitly a moral judgment, and if someone _would_, that places them lower, on morality scale, than you. > [@](#): > > Here’s another example: My best friend in college wound up sleeping with friend’s boyfriend. I think sleeping with anyone else’s boyfriend or girlfriend is wrong, let alone your friend’s. I do not think she was justified in sleeping with him. But I do understand why it happened. It is understandable. I could see myself bowing to temptation if my friend’s girlfriend was coming on to me. I do not think I am morally superior to her. Of course not. Because you think you could do the same. Why would you think you’re morally superior? And if you would do something, that is automatically “justified”. If it wasn’t, you wouldn’t do it. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/480 "2014-08-14T21:16:32Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > I am not persuaded that packing one-handed or asking questions while walking toward the door amount to non-compliance. I doubt there’s much case law here, but I would venture that non-compliance is gonna be pretty contextual, and I very much doubt that in the absence of any real reason to get him out of there in 45 seconds instead of 2 minutes that his conduct could be described as non-compliant. …I’m a photographer and often edit in the field, so I had to think about this one for a minute. Could I pack up my field kit with one hand quickly while I had my other hand up recording? So I tried it, and I can. It is a bit slower, but not by a big margin. Its really only pulling cables and putting stuff in the bags. The behaviour of the police in Ferguson has been so at odds with what I would describe as “normal first world police behaviour” that if I was in the same situation I would be recording as well. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354.md?page=23) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354.md?page=25)