# Ferguson, MO **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 12, 2014, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354 "2014-08-12T04:51:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 25
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/481 "2014-08-14T21:19:50Z")
> [@LibrarySpy](#): > > The pro-police-at-McDonalds people are forgetting one thing. No charges were brought. The reporters were let go with no explanation. Therefore, legally, they committed no crime. All this hand-wringing about disobeying a lawful order is nonsense. > > Ergo, what’s left is harassment and assault. No, what’s left is detainment by police. Is every time someone is detained by police and then let go with no charges “harassment and assault”? ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/482 "2014-08-14T21:22:13Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > …“I would never loot and burn stores” is explicitly a moral judgment, and if someone _would_, that places them lower, on morality scale, than you… No. It is not, and it does not. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/483 "2014-08-14T21:22:20Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …I’m a photographer and often edit in the field, so I had to think about this one for a minute. Could I pack up my field kit with one hand quickly while I had my other hand up recording? > > So I tried it, and I can. It is a bit slower, but not by a big margin. Its really only pulling cables and putting stuff in the bags. The behaviour of the police in Ferguson has been so at odds with what I would describe as “normal first world police behaviour” that if I was in the same situation I would be recording as well. Question for your further experimental verification, if you don’t mind. When you are recording with one hand and packing with the other, does the recording show some evidence of it? I’m thinking that the camera jiggles, moves, gives some indication that the person that is holding it is packing a field kit? Or is it indistinguishable, a video taken by someone who is packing one-handed and someone who isn’t? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/484 "2014-08-14T21:22:49Z")
> [@andros](#): > > No. It is not, and it does not. Yes, yes it is and yes it does. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/485 "2014-08-14T21:23:01Z")
> [@LibrarySpy](#): > > Cite for a specific law, not disorderly conduct, loitering, or “following a lawful order” but a specific law that says the press (have to name them as the press) can be dispersed? Something that overrides a right to assembly or a right to a free press? Cite for any law or court ruling that holds “freedom of the press” to override any of the laws you named? > [@](#): > > The only thing I can think of is trespassing, which they were NOT charged with, or has even been mentioned, and the President himself, very fucking strongly, and apparently the Chief of Police now, have condemned the arrests as without cause. How is that not enough for you? The president is obliged by the circumstances of his job to put politics first and facts second. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/486 "2014-08-14T21:24:03Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Why is being over prepared a problem? Two things: 1) Waste of resources. Police in Augusta, Maine have all been equipped Kevlar vests. No policeman in Augusta, Maine, has been killed in the line of duty in 125 years. Fargo, North Dakota, averages two homicides a year and has never had any terrorism threats, much less incidents. But … > [@one of my cites from my previous post](#): > > Every city squad car is equipped today with a military-style assault rifle, and officers can don Kevlar helmets able to withstand incoming fire from battlefield-grade ammunition. And for that epic confrontation—if it ever occurs—officers can now summon a new $256,643 armored truck, complete with a rotating turret. For now, though, the menacing truck is used mostly for training and appearances at the annual city picnic, where it’s been parked near the children’s bounce house. Two: increased aggressiveness and violence against civilians. When you have a tank or a surveillance blimp or a heavily armed SWAT team, you have justify the budget for it. So you send them out on missions that are really inappropriate for their capabilities. > [@](#): > > Underage drinking and terrorist threats are both crimes, and both can potentially turn violent. I see nothing “inappropriate” about being prepared for a violent confrontation. SWAT teams for everything, eh, Smapti? I don’t think you’ll find a lot of followers for your line of thinking here or anywhere, Smapti. > [@](#): > > And how stable is Iraq these days? I don’t think that’s an example you want to use when talking about how hands off touchy feely law enforcement is so much better. Jeeze, I’d think killing 250,000 Iraqis was enough toughness for ANYONE. > [@](#): > > Criminals _are_ the enemy. Whose side are you on? Right, CRIMINALS are the enemy, but police culture is making the cop treat EVERYONE as the enemy. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/487 "2014-08-14T21:24:07Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Yes, yes it is and yes it does. You are unprepared to accept the validity–or even existence–of any morality other than your own? ETA: Or, indeed, any shades of gray? Any nuance? Any relativism? . ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/488 "2014-08-14T21:24:30Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Question for your further experimental verification, if you don’t mind. When you are recording with one hand and packing with the other, does the recording show some evidence of it? I’m thinking that the camera jiggles, moves, gives some indication that the person that is holding it is packing a field kit? Or is it indistinguishable, a video taken by someone who is packing one-handed and someone who isn’t? …its morning in NZ, and I’m just heading off on a headshot job and out for the rest of the day. Won’t be able to confirm this until this evening, which could be your morning! (I get confused about these things.) But it is something you can try yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/489 "2014-08-14T21:25:04Z")
> [@LibrarySpy](#): > > The pro-police-at-McDonalds people are forgetting one thing. No charges were brought. The reporters were let go with no explanation. Therefore, legally, they committed no crime. All this hand-wringing about disobeying a lawful order is nonsense. > > Ergo, what’s left is harassment and assault. No, this is not true. The police may have probable cause to arrest, but then make a policy decision to release without charges. That would make the arrest lawful, even though no charges were brought. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/490 "2014-08-14T21:27:44Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Yes, yes it is and yes it does. Actually, yanno what? Never mind. I think this is a purely semantic issue, and not worth our time. I disagree that “I would not do that” is a moral judgment on others. . ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/491 "2014-08-14T21:31:04Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Question for your further experimental verification, if you don’t mind. When you are recording with one hand and packing with the other, does the recording show some evidence of it? I’m thinking that the camera jiggles, moves, gives some indication that the person that is holding it is packing a field kit? Or is it indistinguishable, a video taken by someone who is packing one-handed and someone who isn’t? Why does this question matter, given that you appear to be satisfied that even if he _were_ packing with one hand, that would be sufficient to consider him to be non-compliant? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/492 "2014-08-14T21:36:07Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > Two things: 1) Waste of resources. Police in Augusta, Maine have all been equipped Kevlar vests. No policeman in Augusta, Maine, has been killed in the line of duty in 125 years. Fargo, North Dakota, averages two homicides a year and has never had any terrorism threats, much less incidents. But … And there had never been a riot in Ferguson before this one, and I’m sure the families of the police that haven’t been coming home in body bags are glad that their loved ones didn’t have to go into battle with blue uniforms and batons. > [@](#): > > SWAT teams for everything, eh, Smapti? I don’t think you’ll find a lot of followers for your line of thinking here or anywhere, Smapti. In a country where corporate admen have convinced millions that they have a God-given right to fully automatic weapons of mass murder and that we don’t need any safeguards to keep them out of Tue hands of criminals? Absolitely. > [@](#): > > Jeeze, I’d think killing 250,000 Iraqis was enough toughness for ANYONE. Maybe if we hadn’t been as gentle as you say, we wouldn’t now see ISIS committing genocide. > [@](#): > > Right, CRIMINALS are the enemy, but police culture is making the cop treat EVERYONE as the enemy. I have never once been treated as an enemy by the cops. Maybe that’s because when they ask me a question or ask me to do something, I smile and say “yes, officer” instead of shoving a camera in his face and attempting to discuss the finer points of constitutional jurisprudence with him. The police will not view you as the enemy unless you MAKE yourself their enemy. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/493 "2014-08-14T21:36:30Z")
> [@LibrarySpy](#): > > Cite for a specific law, not disorderly conduct, loitering, or “following a lawful order” but a specific law that says the press (have to name them as the press) can be dispersed? Something that overrides a right to assembly or a right to a free press? Missouri Revised Statutes § 574.060: > [@](#): > > A person commits the crime of refusal to disperse if, being present at the scene of an unlawful assembly, or at the scene of a riot, he knowingly fails or refuses to obey the lawful command of a law enforcement officer to depart from the scene of such unlawful assembly or riot. There is no mention of the press, but I have no idea where you got the idea that the press has some special immunity to laws, so that it’s necessary to name the press specifically before it becomes effective. Where did you get that zany idea? > [@](#): > > The only thing I can think of is trespassing, which they were NOT charged with, or has even been mentioned, and the President himself, very fucking strongly, and apparently the Chief of Police now, have condemned the arrests as without cause. How is that not enough for you? A quick look at the Missouri trespassing statute shows no explicit exception for the press either. But here you seem to understand that the law applies to the press, even without that exception. Why is that? ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/494 "2014-08-14T21:39:29Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I have never once been treated as an enemy by the cops. Maybe that’s because when they ask me a question or ask me to do something, I smile and say “yes, officer” instead of shoving a camera in his face and attempting to discuss the finer points of constitutional jurisprudence with him. > > The police will not view you as the enemy unless you MAKE yourself their enemy. I’m assuming that you’re not talking a complete absolute, here, so; roughly what percent would you say of police “viewing [someone] as the enemy” comes about _not_ because of the person in question making themselves an enemy in some way, and what data are you using to come up with your statement? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/495 "2014-08-14T21:42:12Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > Why does this question matter, given that you appear to be satisfied that even if he _were_ packing with one hand, that would be sufficient to consider him to be non-compliant? No, if he’s packing with one hand, and that’s just as effective as packing with two hands – in other words, if he’s expeditiously complying with the order to disperse – then he’s not delaying. Now, even if he’s not delaying, the police could have believed he was. Like me, they could have viewed one-handed packing as intentionally slow. But probable cause requires a look at the totality of the circumstances. It doesn’t help the police if the reporter can show that he was packing at a reasonable rate. ---
**Author:** ![SmellMyWort](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea5d25/32.png) [@SmellMyWort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmellMyWort)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/496 "2014-08-14T21:45:01Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Non sequitur. The fact that they were not charged with a crime does not mean that it was not on the interest of public safety to detain them. > > Journalists in war zones shouldn’t act surprised when they get caught in the crossfire. > > No system of government - liberal, conservative, capitalist, socialist, fascist, or other - can function in the absence of authority. When the government lacks the power to protect the public from people with no respect for the rights of others, the end result is Somalia or Iraq. > > If that’s the kind of country you want to live in, feel free to move. I like it here in America. What crossfire? They were fired at. But you knew that. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/497 "2014-08-14T21:46:45Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No, if he’s packing with one hand, and that’s just as effective as packing with two hands – in other words, if he’s expeditiously complying with the order to disperse – then he’s not delaying. > > Now, even if he’s not delaying, the police could have believed he was. Like me, they could have viewed one-handed packing as intentionally slow. But probable cause requires a look at the totality of the circumstances. It doesn’t help the police if the reporter can show that he was packing at a reasonable rate. “Delaying” doesn’t appear to be included as a term in the statutes you just posted. Perhaps there is some next part to the cited text that includes it, but I don’t see any onus towards expeditious dispersal in there. ---
**Author:** ![LibrarySpy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f9ae1b/32.png) [@LibrarySpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LibrarySpy)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/498 "2014-08-14T21:47:55Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > A person commits the crime of refusal to disperse if, being present at the scene of an unlawful assembly, or at the scene of a riot, he knowingly fails or refuses to obey the lawful command of a law enforcement officer to depart from the scene of such unlawful assembly or riot. I consider most laws with no qualifications to be vague and un-Constitutional, not just against the press but against the population at large. The Supreme Court has ruled pretty decisively on them, but some might have still been on the books in Missouri and exploited. The one you cited requires an [unlawful assembly](http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/chapters/chap574.htm) or a [riot](http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/chapters/chap574.htm), neither of which was the case here. Note “knowingly” and the stipulation about planning to commit a crime. Probably still used to illegally make arrests where there would never be a conviction. Er, knowingly in the assembly and riot definitions, not knowingly in the dispersal law. I agree with **andros** that this is all nitpicking semantics anyway, and that at least for the press corps, justice and common sense have prevailed. Fingers crossed that tonight, it will prevail for everyone. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/499 "2014-08-14T21:48:07Z")
> [@SmellMyWort](#): > > What crossfire? They were fired at. But you knew that. I know that firing occurred in their vicinity. Have you interviewed the police to determine what they were aiming at? ---
**Author:** ![SmellMyWort](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea5d25/32.png) [@SmellMyWort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmellMyWort)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/500 "2014-08-14T21:49:51Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No, if he’s packing with one hand, and that’s just as effective as packing with two hands – in other words, if he’s expeditiously complying with the order to disperse – then he’s not delaying. > > Now, even if he’s not delaying, the police could have believed he was. Like me, they could have viewed one-handed packing as intentionally slow. But probable cause requires a look at the totality of the circumstances. It doesn’t help the police if the reporter can show that he was packing at a reasonable rate. It would have been even faster for the police to demand that they abandon their gear. Would that have been a reasonable request? The cop was just looking for an excuse to harass these reporters and not moving fast enough was a convenient excuse. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354.md?page=24) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354.md?page=26)