# Ferguson, MO **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 12, 2014, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354 "2014-08-12T04:51:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 28
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/541 "2014-08-15T00:12:56Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > But I don’t see how “refusal” can be defined as “compliance”. If someone purports to comply but moves unreasonably slowly, that is not in fact compliance, any more than leaving the scene and then returning is. In both cases, the idea is that they are not actually complying. > [@](#): > > I don’t see how the evidence is enough for a jury to conclude that this particular delay was refusal. If dispersal remains a question of fact for the jury, then on what basis could a police officer decide that there is probable cause? It’s a question of fact at trial. For the police officer, it’s simply a determination of whether there’s a fair possibility that the conduct violates the law. And if the same set of facts would allow a jury to find guilt, they will support a probable cause determination. ---
**Author:** ![Sicks\_Ate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Sicks\_Ate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sicks_Ate)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/542 "2014-08-15T00:13:33Z")
For the record, an HP captain is at least equivalent to a police chief or sheriff. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/543 "2014-08-15T00:14:16Z")
Yes, I wonder what some of the posters here think of the approach being taken by state police (led by a captain who’s from the town). Putting lives at risk by not having heavy vehicles and mingling with the protesters, I suppose. ---
**Author:** ![Sicks\_Ate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Sicks\_Ate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sicks_Ate)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/544 "2014-08-15T00:18:08Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > Sorry to disappoint you **Smapti** , rather than firing on the protesters, the public servants are trying to find out why they are angry. [Missouri Police Captain Meets With Protesters In Ferguson - TPM – Talking Points Memo](http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/police-captain-walks-ferguson-protesters) > > Maybe next time they’ll kill the people for you. Anyone who thinks the police were appropriately handling this situation before needs to click on this link. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/545 "2014-08-15T00:20:49Z")
A lot of people clearly see the protesters as somehow lesser people and not real Americans. They buy into the idea of police as an occupying force, rather than servants of all the public. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/546 "2014-08-15T00:22:35Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > If someone purports to comply but moves unreasonably slowly, that is not in fact compliance, any more than leaving the scene and then returning is. In both cases, the idea is that they are not actually complying. My question is, under what circumstances can cops demand that someone stop videotaping them? If they can’t demand that videotaping them end, and someone hasn’t otherwise invited arrest, can police give the person a different command that necessitates the end to recording them? WHETHER OR NOT THE COMMAND WAS LEGAL, we need to move toward a society in which there’s a very strong presumption that recording police activity is acceptable, and we need to give all deference possible to someone who’s recording police. If they’re not endangering someone else, or unambiguously using the recording of the police as an excuse to avoid doing something legally required, the police need to allow the recording to continue. If this means, as a purely hypothetical example, that we need to allow someone recording the police an extra hundred seconds to vacate a McDonald’s, then fucking of course we need to allow that as a society. Again, I have no opinion on the strict legality of this arrest (that’s a lie, I have an opinion, but it’s not up for discussion). I do have a strong opinion on whether we as a society should have laws that make this arrest legal. And even then, I have stronger opinions on people who think this arrest is the most significant part of this whole horrorshow, in which my government killed another innocent black dude and then closed ranks behind the killer. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/547 "2014-08-15T00:22:40Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > That’s because a civilian was the shooter. I’m sure you can imagine a difference, at the least in perception, when it’s a law enforcement officer. Hell, there was a non fatal shooting in New Orleans recently that was just never reported to the public. And so you know about it because…? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/548 "2014-08-15T00:25:05Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > Sorry to disappoint you **Smapti** , rather than firing on the protesters, the public servants are trying to find out why they are angry. [Missouri Police Captain Meets With Protesters In Ferguson - TPM – Talking Points Memo](http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/police-captain-walks-ferguson-protesters) > > Maybe next time they’ll kill the people for you. How quaint. We’ll see how that works for him when the sun goes down and they start shooting. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/549 "2014-08-15T00:27:04Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > And so you know about it because…? Because [the press got involved, of course.](http://www.nola.com/crime/index.ssf/2014/08/nopd_officer_shot_man_during_a.html?fb_action_ids=10152648293530775&fb_action_types=og.likes&fb_ref=s%3DshowShareBarUI%3Ap%3Dfacebook-like) ETA: > [@Smapti](#): > > How quaint. We’ll see how that works for him when the sun goes down and they start shooting. I knew it. (Further snark considered and deleted for possibly encouraging inter-board drama.) ---
**Author:** ![Sicks\_Ate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Sicks\_Ate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sicks_Ate)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/550 "2014-08-15T00:27:14Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > How quaint. We’ll see how that works for him when the sun goes down and they start shooting. You really hope that happens too, don’t you ya sick fuck. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/551 "2014-08-15T00:27:38Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > If someone purports to comply but moves unreasonably slowly, that is not in fact compliance, any more than leaving the scene and then returning is. In both cases, the idea is that they are not actually complying. I don’t see that an analogy can be drawn between a non-immediate compliance and leave-and-return such that one being a refusal means that the other must be. Do you have a cite, as with leave-and-return, to show that non-immediate compliance has likewise been held to be refusal? > [@](#): > > It’s a question of fact at trial. For the police officer, it’s simply a determination of whether there’s a fair possibility that the conduct violates the law. And if the same set of facts would allow a jury to find guilt, they will support a probable cause determination. But if defining dispersal is a question of fact for a jury, how can a police officer determine that there’s a fair possibility that the conduct violates the law? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/552 "2014-08-15T00:27:38Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > A lot of people clearly see the protesters as somehow lesser people and not real Americans. In what way are they real Americans? > [@](#): > > They buy into the idea of police as an occupying force, rather than servants of all the public. Of course the police are public servants. That’s what they’ve been doing - serving the public by making the streets safe for real Americans. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/553 "2014-08-15T00:29:46Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > Because [the press got involved, of course.](http://www.nola.com/crime/index.ssf/2014/08/nopd_officer_shot_man_during_a.html?fb_action_ids=10152648293530775&fb_action_types=og.likes&fb_ref=s%3DshowShareBarUI%3Ap%3Dfacebook-like) > > ) Then in what way was it “never reported to the public”? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/554 "2014-08-15T00:31:14Z")
> [@Sicks\_Ate](#): > > You really hope that happens too, don’t you ya sick fuck. No, I just hope he’s got his affairs in order. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/555 "2014-08-15T00:32:28Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > How quaint. We’ll see how that works for him when the sun goes down and they start shooting. What a foul little worm you are. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/556 "2014-08-15T00:34:06Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > My question is, under what circumstances can cops demand that someone stop videotaping them? If they can’t demand that videotaping them end, and someone hasn’t otherwise invited arrest, can police give the person a different command that necessitates the end to recording them? The police can give a wide set of legal commands in various circumstances. They generally cannot require someone stop recording them, but they can require you to stop doing anything that interferes with their operations. So the question is: is the “different command” justified, or not? > [@](#): > > WHETHER OR NOT THE COMMAND WAS LEGAL, we need to move toward a society in which there’s a very strong presumption that recording police activity is acceptable, and we need to give all deference possible to someone who’s recording police. If they’re not endangering someone else, or unambiguously using the recording of the police as an excuse to avoid doing something legally required, the police need to allow the recording to continue. I agree. But at the same time, recording cannot justify placing oneself in a position which interferes with operations or endangers the videographer. Police can order you to stay away from the shoutout, in other words. > [@](#): > > If this means, as a purely hypothetical example, that we need to allow someone recording the police an extra hundred seconds to vacate a McDonald’s, then fucking of course we need to allow that as a society. That’s not clear to me. There should not be exceptions in otherwise valid orders to accommodate recording. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/557 "2014-08-15T00:35:08Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Then in what way was it “never reported to the public”? By the police, I mean. It was obviously reported to the public, but by the press, and only because they did some digging. > [@Naomi Martin](#): > > The shooting was never publicly disclosed by New Orleans police. > > … > > The department, despite receiving requests for information and records, did not disclose that anyone was shot. > > … > > The NOPD only confirmed the shooting after this story was published. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/558 "2014-08-15T00:35:16Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > What a foul little worm you are. Being concerned for the man’s safety makes me foul? Oh, wait, I forgot - he’s a cop, not a person. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/559 "2014-08-15T00:35:09Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > In what way are they real Americans?.. They were born here, they pay taxes and they are risking their safety to try to improve their community. I know their dark skin makes them subhuman to you, but you seem batshit crazy. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/560 "2014-08-15T00:36:04Z")
This thread is a good indicator of the posters who would herd people onto trains. Y’know, if someone in a uniform asked them to. Authority, and all that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354.md?page=27) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354.md?page=29)