# Ferguson, MO **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 12, 2014, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354 "2014-08-12T04:51:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 29
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/561 "2014-08-15T00:36:43Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Being concerned for the man’s safety makes me foul? Oh, wait, I forgot - he’s a cop, not a person. I think you know exactly what’s being said to you, and that you’re being disingenuous by pretending otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/562 "2014-08-15T00:36:45Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > By the police, I mean. It was obviously reported to the public, but by the press, and only because they did some digging. And they didn’t even have to throw Molotov cocktails at the police to get the job done? Simply amazing. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/563 "2014-08-15T00:40:39Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > I don’t see that an analogy can be drawn between a non-immediate compliance and leave-and-return such that one being a refusal means that the other must be. Do you have a cite, as with leave-and-return, to show that non-immediate compliance has likewise been held to be refusal? No. So far as my research shows, the case I quoted is the only time the Missouri appellate system has addressed the failure to disperse law. But the principles of criminal law are pretty straightforward. Even Richard Parker would (I am confident) agree that the example I gave (the sixty-second pause between each step) would constitute constructive refusal. The actual facts here are much closer, of course. But the principle that someone needs to substantially comply is not seriously disputed. > [@](#): > > But if defining dispersal is a question of fact for a jury, how can a police officer determine that there’s a fair possibility that the conduct violates the law? At the risk of severe oversimplification, the officer determines that a jury would see those facts and reach a verdict of guilty. That’s not it, but it will do. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/564 "2014-08-15T00:45:42Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Being concerned for the man’s safety makes me foul? Oh, wait, I forgot - he’s a cop, not a person. He’s a GOOD COP, unlike the jackbooted idiots you’ve been rooting for. Look at the pictures of him walking up and talking to the protesters. He’s not in danger. He’s doing his job properly, keeping order by defusing and deescalating a tense situation. You don’t think like an American citizen, **Smapti**. You think like the cowed subject of some totalitarian regime. Yes, sir. Here are my papers, sir. Please don’t hurt me, sir. Pathetic. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/565 "2014-08-15T00:47:53Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > He’s a GOOD COP, unlike the jackbooted idiots you’ve been rooting for. Look at the pictures of him walking up and talking to the protesters. He’s not in danger. He’s doing his job properly, keeping order by defusing and deescalating a tense situation. Yes, because the Sun is out. The riots haven’t been happening in the daytime. > [@](#): > > You don’t think like an American citizen, **Smapti**. You think like the cowed subject of some totalitarian regime. Yes, sir. Here are my papers, sir. Please don’t hurt me, sir. Pathetic. You wound me. I am very American and I love this country. That’s why I can’t abide terrorists and anarchists who mock our way of life by destroying property and trying to kill officers of the law. ---
**Author:** ![Sicks\_Ate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Sicks\_Ate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sicks_Ate)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/566 "2014-08-15T00:52:58Z")
If they were trying to kill officers of the law, idiot, there’d be some dead by now. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/567 "2014-08-15T00:54:38Z")
> [@Sicks\_Ate](#): > > If they were trying to kill officers of the law, idiot, there’d be some dead by now. I’m not sure what I find stranger - your overconfidence in the ability of rock-throwing anarchists to take on a modern military force, or your underconfidence in said force. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/568 "2014-08-15T01:08:44Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > You wound me. I am very American and I love this country. You’re an unpatriotic fascist who opposes everything America stands for. You are a coward and a boot-licker, the sort of craven weasel who admires bullyboys and thugs. Crawl back into your nasty little hole, you filthy little creep. America is better than the likes of you. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/569 "2014-08-15T01:10:28Z")
Here’s [a really nice article](http://www.vox.com/2014/8/14/6002917/ferguson-police-expert-interview-fritz?utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter&utm_campaign=mattyglesias&utm_content=thursday) about how the Ferguson police were fucking the situation up. Money quote: > [@](#): > > ZB: From your description, it sounds like they’re taking military equipment, and using it to do utterly incompetent police work. > > JF: That is exactly correct. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/570 "2014-08-15T01:11:22Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > You’re an unpatriotic fascist who opposes everything America stands for. You are a coward and a boot-licker, the sort of craven weasel who admires bullyboys and thugs. Crawl back into your nasty little hole, you filthy little creep. America is better than the likes of you. America stands for arson, looting, and willfully breaking the law and antagonizing government officials? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/571 "2014-08-15T01:19:56Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > That’s not clear to me. There should not be exceptions in otherwise valid orders to accommodate recording. I think it’s more valid than the RFRA. We have a vested public interest in making sure that our police are following the law to a T, and recording them is a powerful way to advance that interest. If police can exercise broad judgment in issuing orders that end recording, justifying those orders by claiming they viewed a danger, that hinders our public interest. I’d suggest that an order that necessitates an end to an ongoing recording of the police should be held to a higher standard–that is, could the police have maintained public safety with a different order that did not end the recording? Again, the whole issue with the reporter is a sideshow to the main fact of another unarmed dude being killed by my government because he was black. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/572 "2014-08-15T01:20:18Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I’m not sure what I find stranger - your overconfidence in the ability of rock-throwing anarchists to take on a modern military force, or your underconfidence in said force. interesting that you called community police a modern military force. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/573 "2014-08-15T01:21:16Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > interesting that you called community police a modern military force. Everyone else in this thread has been wringing out their bleeding hearts about how “militarized” the cops are. Are you saying they’re not? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/574 "2014-08-15T01:35:30Z")
> [@andros](#): > > Actually, yanno what? Never mind. I think this is a purely semantic issue, and not worth our time. > > I disagree that “I would not do that” is a moral judgment on others. > . I posted a [poll on that](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=731092). You’re welcome to vote. I wonder how many people think like you. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/575 "2014-08-15T01:40:32Z")
Interesting development – Missouri State Police Captain [Ronald Johnson](http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/police-captain-walks-ferguson-protesters) took control of Ferguson police operations, and earlier today marched with the Ferguson protesters and talked to them about the situation. It’s the first time, according to the reporter, that the police actually interacted with (in a mingling/chatting way) the protesters. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/576 "2014-08-15T01:51:03Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Everyone else in this thread has been wringing out their bleeding hearts about how “militarized” the cops are. Are you saying they’re not? No, but you are a servile racist fuck, so I’m surprised by your moment of clarity. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/577 "2014-08-15T01:53:19Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > My question is, under what circumstances can cops demand that someone stop videotaping them? If they can’t demand that videotaping them end, and someone hasn’t otherwise invited arrest, can police give the person a different command that necessitates the end to recording them? > > WHETHER OR NOT THE COMMAND WAS LEGAL, we need to move toward a society in which there’s a very strong presumption that recording police activity is acceptable, and we need to give all deference possible to someone who’s recording police. If they’re not endangering someone else, or unambiguously using the recording of the police as an excuse to avoid doing something legally required, the police need to allow the recording to continue. > > If this means, as a purely hypothetical example, that we need to allow someone recording the police an extra hundred seconds to vacate a McDonald’s, then fucking of course we need to allow that as a society. > > Again, I have no opinion on the strict legality of this arrest (that’s a lie, I have an opinion, but it’s not up for discussion). I do have a strong opinion on whether we as a society should have laws that make this arrest legal. > > And even then, I have stronger opinions on people who think this arrest is the most significant part of this whole horrorshow, in which my government killed another innocent black dude and then closed ranks behind the killer. I’ll offer my non-lawyer 2-cents worth on this. I think that the only time the police might stop someone to stop filming is when them continuing to film interferes with what the cop wants them to do. If the cop, as I see happened here, tells someone to leave the premises, they need to leave the premises. If they can do so while still filming, fine. If the filming interferes with them leaving the premise, they need to stop. So, it’s not that the emphasis is “stop filming”, it’s on “Do X!”, which interfered with by the filming. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/578 "2014-08-15T02:02:18Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I’ll offer my non-lawyer 2-cents worth on this. I think that the only time the police might stop someone to stop filming is when them continuing to film interferes with what the cop wants them to do. If the cop, as I see happened here, tells someone to leave the premises, they need to leave the premises. If they can do so while still filming, fine. If the filming interferes with them leaving the premise, they need to stop. So, it’s not that the emphasis is “stop filming”, it’s on “Do X!”, which interfered with by the filming. Can you put the word “significantly” in front of “interferes”? IOW, if it’s not an emergency situation, but rather trying to prevent some nonsense, and it means the filmer will be the last one out the door and maybe even take an extra two minutes to get out, that should be totally fine. If there are currently people in tanks taking potshots at the building with sniper rifles, it’s an emergency, and a delay is unacceptable. That would be a fair rule. The rule should give due deference to people recording cops’ behavior, though. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/579 "2014-08-15T02:02:24Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I think it’s more valid than the RFRA. We have a vested public interest in making sure that our police are following the law to a T, and recording them is a powerful way to advance that interest. If police can exercise broad judgment in issuing orders that end recording, justifying those orders by claiming they viewed a danger, that hinders our public interest. I’d suggest that an order that necessitates an end to an ongoing recording of the police should be held to a higher standard–that is, could the police have maintained public safety with a different order that did not end the recording? > > Again, the whole issue with the reporter is a sideshow to the main fact of another unarmed dude being killed by my government because he was black. I wouldn’t agree, for the reason that a situation argued in a safe courtroom is different than in the middle of a dangerous situation. I think police should have broad powers to issue orders to preserve order and safety. Your concern will get handled by technology. It’s already true that, as opposed to 15 years ago, almost everyone is carrying around a video recorder. Better tech will allow more recording options that the police cannot plausible claim interferes with operations. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/580 "2014-08-15T02:14:03Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Can you put the word “significantly” in front of “interferes”? IOW, if it’s not an emergency situation, but rather trying to prevent some nonsense, and it means the filmer will be the last one out the door and maybe even take an extra two minutes to get out, that should be totally fine. If there are currently people in tanks taking potshots at the building with sniper rifles, it’s an emergency, and a delay is unacceptable. > > That would be a fair rule. > > The rule should give due deference to people recording cops’ behavior, though. Maybe. Actually, I’d say “Yes” IF the final judgement call is the cop’s. Even in the short amount of time of the delay in the video, I’d say that could be considered too long. At issue is not only what is happening in the McDonald’'s at that time, but the events happening outside the door and down the block. The more quickly the cop can get out of the restaurant the more quickly he can be someplace his presence may really be needed. Also, I think it’s different if the journalist is filming events going on—the news—but that guy was just making himself part of the story, which is the opposite of what a good journalist does in an instance like this. So, I basically agree with you, I think, but feel strongly that if a cop feels he needs to take control of a situation or scene, the degree of urgency needs to be left to him. But I do agree that his basic instruction beforehand should be what we probably agree on. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354.md?page=28) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354.md?page=30)