# Ferguson, MO **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 12, 2014, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354 "2014-08-12T04:51:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 34
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/661 "2014-08-15T15:46:09Z")
> [@Sicks\_Ate](#): > > Unfortunately, it appears that Brown robbed a convenience store shortly before being shot. > > [Darren Wilson Identified As Officer Who Fatally Shot Michael Brown | HuffPost Voices](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/15/darren-wilson-michael-brown_n_5681340.html) > > Perhaps more unfortunately, that information will be used to justify everything that occurred after the fact. IMO it changes everything. Because we don’t know what happened, but we need to consider what’s more likely. And if a guy is just walking down the street minding his own business, that makes it less likely that he would just assault a cop who stopped him. But if the guy had just robbed a store, it’s more likely that that’s how it went down. (I never understood to begin with the part about the cop trying to pull him into the cop car on top of himself.) And it turns out that his main witness and pal was apparently part of the robbery too. So it’s a very very different story. Despite that, if the cop shot him in the back at some distance he has what to answer for. ---
**Author:** ![Defensive\_Indifference](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/defensive_indifference/32/6502_2.png) [@Defensive\_Indifference](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Defensive_Indifference)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/662 "2014-08-15T15:48:03Z")
> [@Sicks\_Ate](#): > > Unfortunately, it appears that Brown robbed a convenience store shortly before being shot. > > [Darren Wilson Identified As Officer Who Fatally Shot Michael Brown | HuffPost Voices](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/15/darren-wilson-michael-brown_n_5681340.html) > > Perhaps more unfortunately, that information will be used to justify everything that occurred after the fact. > > One thing I’ll just point out now: Until this press conference, the robbery was never mentioned. This leads me to believe that the officer who shot Brown was not contacting him in connection with the robbery. > > If he HAD been investigation or responding to a robbery, that would have been mitigating factor #1 from the very beginning. I tend to agree with you on all these points. Even if the cop was contacting Brown in connection with the robbery, it doesn’t change the fact that multiple witnesses have said Brown was surrendering when he was fatally shot. Nor does the fact that Brown was wanted in connection with the robbery justify the crazy tactics the Ferguson cops used in response to the protests. ETA: It wasn’t just Brown’s friend who said Brown was shot while surrendering. Other witnesses not connected with the two have said the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/663 "2014-08-15T15:49:46Z")
> [@Sicks\_Ate](#): > > Unfortunately, it appears that Brown robbed a convenience store shortly before being shot. > > Perhaps more unfortunately, that information will be used to justify everything that occurred after the fact. I don’t think “justify” is the right word here. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/664 "2014-08-15T15:52:44Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Because we don’t know what happened, but we need to consider what’s more likely. And if a guy is just walking down the street minding his own business, that makes it less likely that he would just assault a cop who stopped him. But if the guy had just robbed a store, it’s more likely that that’s how it went down. (I never understood to begin with the part about the cop trying to pull him into the cop car on top of himself.) Weirdly, I would have said the opposite. Someone that had just committed a crime, to my mind, would want to avoid any kind of confrontation with the police as much as possible. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/665 "2014-08-15T15:55:09Z")
> [@Bayard](#): > > ETA: It wasn’t just Brown’s friend who said Brown was shot while surrendering. Other witnesses not connected with the two have said the same thing. This may well turn out to be true, but there may be less to the “multiple witnesses” than appears at first glance, IMO. From what I’ve read, these witnesses have been reluctant to discuss things with the police, and their testimony has been given to media outlets. And they are presumably aware of what the others have said. And this is a highly charged issue at this point. Let’s see what they say - and how well they hold up - under oath and facing cross examination. What’s more important IMO is what the coroner and forensic analysis say. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/666 "2014-08-15T15:56:07Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > I disagree. Saying “get moving” or “let’s go” a dozen times at least to a person who is sitting there dragging their feet, arguing, asking questions and filming them is as clear as it gets. There’s no need for a timeline of how many seconds or minutes they have to move because the answer is zero. They need to move now. I think a lot turns on whether he was packing with his other hand. He says in the video that he was and the officer doesn’t seem to disagree. He also says so in his account of the incident. And, indeed, he obviously did get packed up and leave all in under a minute. If that’s right, then the question is whether he should have packed more quickly. And that’s where I think some concrete order must be given in order to arrest him, if it is not otherwise clear from the circumstances that there is some necessity of haste. > [@Debaser](#): > > But my main concern is whether it was legal for them to order the journalist out in the first place. I’m not so sure about that. Agree that this is the bigger question. I see circumstantial evidence that there was no unlawful assembly (it was still daylight, the McDonalds had just been open prior to this, etc.), so in the absence of other evidence I think our conditional conclusion should be that the order was improper. But I’m open to someone showing that around this time a violence crowd had assembled outside. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/667 "2014-08-15T16:00:50Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > Weirdly, I would have said the opposite. Someone that had just committed a crime, to my mind, would want to avoid any kind of confrontation with the police as much as possible. That’s not how it works, IME. The guy would obviously want to avoid all contact with the police. But once the guy stopped him, he didn’t want to get seized, so he did what he needed to get away. There was a case of in NJ a few years ago. A cop stopped a guy walking and called him over to his car. Guy was wanted for various crimes. He pulled out a gun and shot him in the head. > **[Christopher Matlosz - New Jersey 101.5](https://nj1015.com/tags/christopher-matlosz/)** ---
**Author:** ![Defensive\_Indifference](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/defensive_indifference/32/6502_2.png) [@Defensive\_Indifference](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Defensive_Indifference)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/668 "2014-08-15T16:01:59Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > From what I’ve read, these witnesses have been reluctant to discuss things with the police, and their testimony has been given to media outlets. The police didn’t interview anyone for several days. Brown’s friend had to get a lawyer and pressure the cops to take a statement from him. The cops initially showed little interest in investigating this. Then, once they brought the heavy weapons out, any remaining chance of cooperation from the locals went down the shitter > [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > What’s more important IMO is what the coroner and forensic analysis say. Agreed. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/669 "2014-08-15T16:04:59Z")
No one finds it interesting that in dozens of interviews Brown’s friend has given to the press, not one mention was made of the robbery that Brown and Johnson committed immediately before the incident? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/670 "2014-08-15T16:06:23Z")
I think you mean “are suspected to have committed”, maybe. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/671 "2014-08-15T16:07:12Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Ok. How about, instead of a sixty-second pause between each object, the pause was two minutes? Three minutes? Ten minutes? > > Is there some point in your mind at which a claimed pause becomes an effective refusal? Clearly, you have to review that matter with respect to the totality of the circumstances, not by means of a stopwatch. I get your point, but I’m thinking your mathematical approach leaves far too many doors open. It’s a judgment call, and we know who’s judgment makes the call. ---
**Author:** ![Sicks\_Ate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Sicks\_Ate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sicks_Ate)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/672 "2014-08-15T16:07:35Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > No one finds it interesting that in dozens of interviews Brown’s friend has given to the press, not one mention was made of the robbery that Brown and Johnson committed immediately before the incident? Cop: I pulled you over for speeding. Driver: Speeding, hell! You should have seen me run that stoplight, cut a guy off, and throw a beer bottle out my window! No, I don’t find it interesting. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/673 "2014-08-15T16:09:21Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > I don’t actually know if constructive refusal is a concept recognized in this area of law. It seems to me that an alternative would be to require officers to give specific instructions for faster packing and an opportunity to comply before they can arrest. So, in your scenario, it may be incumbent upon the officer to say to the photographer that he must pack more quickly or he will be arrested. I think that would be a pretty good rule, perhaps more consistent with due process, and preferable to using constructive refusal. (Though, again, I don’t know if actual courts have agreed with me or not.) In the one case I can find construing this statute, the Missouri Court of Appeals upheld a conviction where the accused left, but then returned later, and was arrested without any subsequent warnings. The court said, “By regrouping, defendant in effect refused to obey the lawful command of Callow to depart from the scene of the unlawful assembly.” The court’s use of “in effect,” signals that the court recognizes that the accused initially obeyed the command, but then returned, making his refusal constructive. The accused in that case raised the defense that order was not specific enough – that it didn’t actually forbid returning after leaving. The court did not agree that such specificity was needed. In fact, the actual words used in that case were simply, “Break it up.” The court said: > [@](#): > > Words are to be interpreted according to their plain and ordinary meaning which is the commonly accepted dictionary definition. “Break up” is defined as “to disrupt the continuity or flow or to bring to an end.” Webster’s Collegiate Dictionary 177 (9th ed. 1984). A person of reasonable intelligence would understand the words “break it up” to mean that he is supposed to depart from the area. In this case, the officer says twice to hurry up (0:08 and 0:11) and then says they are down to about 45 seconds left (0:17). If “break it up,” with nothing more, is sufficient to sustain a conviction for a guy that actually leaves and then returns, then repeated invocations of “Get your stuff and let’s go,” (0:01); “Let’s grab our stuff and go,” (0:05); and “We’re down to about forty-five seconds,” (0:17); and a half-dozen more commands to leave certainly are enough to sustain probable cause. > [@](#): > > If you’re gonna have a rule of constructive refusal, then I think in order to satisfy due process then it has to be clear from the circumstances that compliance with the order required quicker packing. Why doesn’t the officer’s “We’re down to about forty-five seconds,” qualify? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/674 "2014-08-15T16:10:26Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I think you mean “are suspected to have committed”, maybe. Since his friend’s lawyer confirms it, it’s not “suspected to have committed” anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/675 "2014-08-15T16:11:36Z")
> [@Bayard](#): > > The police didn’t interview anyone for several days. Brown’s friend had to get a lawyer and pressure the cops to take a statement from him. The cops initially showed little interest in investigating this. Then, once they brought the heavy weapons out, any remaining chance of cooperation from the locals went down the shitter [Police have interviewed more than a dozen people in Ferguson about Michael Brown shooting](http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2014/08/13/police-have-interviewed-more-than-a-dozen-people-in-ferguson-about-the-michael-brown-shooting/) > [@](#): > > County Police Sgt. Colby Dolly said police have made every effort to hear Johnson’s account firsthand. > > “We have reached out to numerous people in his network, family and friends, and are doing everything we can to talk to him,” Dolly said. “There is an open invitation for him to be interviewed.” > > Johnson has said he fears police retaliation. An attorney for Johnson told The Post that he would be speaking with the FBI, which is also investigating the shooting, as well as the county prosecutor on Wednesday. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/676 "2014-08-15T16:13:41Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > That’s not how it works, IME. The guy would obviously want to avoid all contact with the police. But once the guy stopped him, he didn’t want to get seized, so he did what he needed to get away. > > There was a case of in NJ a few years ago. A cop stopped a guy walking and called him over to his car. Guy was wanted for various crimes. He pulled out a gun and shot him in the head. > > [Christopher Matlosz - New Jersey 101.5](http://nj1015.com/tags/christopher-matlosz/) The whole “wanted for various crimes” seems to be a big difference between the two examples. The soon-to-be-cop-killer, from your cites, actively believed that he was about to be arrested prior to any contact, and knew that his crimes were known. That’s not something you could say for Brown. ---
**Author:** ![Defensive\_Indifference](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/defensive_indifference/32/6502_2.png) [@Defensive\_Indifference](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Defensive_Indifference)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/677 "2014-08-15T16:13:54Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > No one finds it interesting that in dozens of interviews Brown’s friend has given to the press, not one mention was made of the robbery that Brown and Johnson committed immediately before the incident? Not really. I find it somewhat more interesting that the Ferguson cops failed to mention it till today. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/678 "2014-08-15T16:16:16Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > The whole “wanted for various crimes” seems to be a big difference between the two examples. The soon-to-be-cop-killer, from your cites, actively believed that he was about to be arrested prior to any contact, and knew that his crimes were known. That’s not something you could say for Brown. Exact same thing goes for Brown. I don’t know how bright Brown was, but if you rob a store and 10 minutes later get pulled over on the street by a cop, it’s not too hard to figure out what he wants you for. > [@Bayard](#): > > I find it somewhat more interesting that the Ferguson cops failed to mention it till today. What’s your theory? ---
**Author:** ![Defensive\_Indifference](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/defensive_indifference/32/6502_2.png) [@Defensive\_Indifference](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Defensive_Indifference)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/679 "2014-08-15T16:18:08Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > [Police have interviewed more than a dozen people in Ferguson about Michael Brown shooting](http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2014/08/13/police-have-interviewed-more-than-a-dozen-people-in-ferguson-about-the-michael-brown-shooting/) Fair enough. I misremembered some of the chronology and actors. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/680 "2014-08-15T16:20:46Z")
> [@Sicks\_Ate](#): > > Cop: I pulled you over for speeding. > > Driver: Speeding, hell! You should have seen me run that stoplight, cut a guy off, and throw a beer bottle out my window! > > No, I don’t find it interesting. I agree that it’s not surprising. But it does mean he had another reason to misrepresent what actually happened. (And to be reluctant to speak to the police about it, FTM.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354.md?page=33) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354.md?page=35)