# Ferguson, MO **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 12, 2014, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354 "2014-08-12T04:51:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 35
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/681 "2014-08-15T16:21:10Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Exact same thing goes for Brown. > > I don’t know how bright Brown was, but if you rob a store and 10 minutes later get pulled over on the street by a cop, it’s not too hard to figure out what he wants you for. Sure it is. There’s any number of things it could be. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/682 "2014-08-15T16:22:36Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > I think a lot turns on whether he was packing with his other hand. He says in the video that he was and the officer doesn’t seem to disagree. He also says so in his account of the incident. And, indeed, he obviously did get packed up and leave all in under a minute. > > If that’s right, then the question is whether he should have packed more quickly. And that’s where I think some concrete order must be given in order to arrest him, if it is not otherwise clear from the circumstances that there is some necessity of haste. To borrow the language from State v. Mast, a person of ordinary intelligence would have understood there was urgency from the officer’s words. He gives a specific timeline, and repeatedly and strongly urges the reporter to move, and the reporter clearly is seeking to slow and and delay. Forget the supposed packing – how about the conversation after he’s away from the table? He’s delaying, and almost anyone watching the video would agree. Certainly his conduct is enough to allow the officer to conclude there’s probable cause he’s delaying. > [@](#): > > Agree that this is the bigger question. I see circumstantial evidence that there was no unlawful assembly (it was still daylight, the McDonalds had just been open prior to this, etc.), so in the absence of other evidence I think our conditional conclusion should be that the order was improper. But I’m open to someone showing that around this time a violence crowd had assembled outside. Me, too. Probable cause is easy on the “refusal,” part. The existence of an unlawful assembly _at that time, at that scene_ is not clear to me. ---
**Author:** ![Defensive\_Indifference](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/defensive_indifference/32/6502_2.png) [@Defensive\_Indifference](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Defensive_Indifference)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/683 "2014-08-15T16:22:45Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > What’s your theory? I’m not sure I have one. I tend to agree with **Sicks Ate** that the cop probably wasn’t contacting him in connection with the robbery. Hopefully this will come out in the investigation. Like **Sicks Ate** said, you’d think the robbery would have been a mitigating factor the cops would want to get out there. The fact that they didn’t is, well, interesting. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/684 "2014-08-15T16:22:52Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > Sure it is. There’s any number of things it could be. Exactly. Maybe he wanted to recruit him for the force. Big strong guy like that. And they say they were having a hard time recruiting black officers. > [@Bayard](#): > > I’m not sure I have one. I tend to agree with **Sicks Ate** that the cop probably wasn’t contacting him in connection with the robbery. Hopefully this will come out in the investigation. Like **Sicks Ate** said, you’d think the robbery would have been a mitigating factor the cops would want to get out there. The fact that they didn’t is, well, interesting. The cops have been very tight-lipped in general. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/685 "2014-08-15T16:24:20Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > To borrow the language from State v. Mast, a person of ordinary intelligence would have understood there was urgency from the officer’s words. He gives a specific timeline… Does the officer have the lawful authority to set out a specific timeline that must be adhered to? ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/686 "2014-08-15T16:25:21Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Exactly. Maybe he wanted to recruit him for the force. Big strong guy like that. And they say they were having a hard time recruiting black officers. Do you care to respond seriously? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/687 "2014-08-15T16:27:52Z")
Why wasn’t the alleged accomplice arrested at the scene? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/688 "2014-08-15T16:30:31Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Since his friend’s lawyer confirms it, it’s not “suspected to have committed” anymore. That’s not how it works. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/689 "2014-08-15T16:31:45Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > Do you care to respond seriously? It’s uncommon for cops to pull people over on the sidewalk. Happens but it’s uncommon. It’s extremely likely that the cop pulled him over in connection to the robbery - Brown was a pretty distinctive guy due to his size. But even if he didn’t, and it was just a remarkable coincidence that he happened to pull for some unrelated reason a guy who happened to commit a robbery 10 minutes earlier, what counts is what Brown thought. And a guy who just robbed a place and was stopped by a cop 10 minutes later would be thinking there was kind of a high degree of likelihood that he’s about to be arrested for the robbery, and his reaction would in all likelihood reflect that. > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > That’s not how it works. In a court of law. On a MB, that is how it works. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/690 "2014-08-15T16:33:49Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > …but if you rob a store and 10 minutes later … > [@](#): > > …He outlined events that began at 11 a.m. the day of the shooting and implied Wilson confronted Brown, 18, in connection with the robbery. Wilson encountered Brown at 12:01 p.m., Jackson said. By the time a second officer arrived at 12:04 p.m., Brown was dead… Roughly an hour. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/691 "2014-08-15T16:34:52Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > It’s uncommon for cops to pull people over on the sidewalk. Happens but it’s uncommon. It’s extremely likely that the cop pulled him over in connection to the robbery - Brown was a pretty distinctive guy due to his size. > > But even if he didn’t, and it was just a remarkable coincidence that he happened to pull for some unrelated reason a guy who happened to commit a robbery 10 minutes earlier, what counts is what Brown thought. And a guy who just robbed a place and was stopped by a cop 10 minutes later would be thinking there was kind of a high degree of likelihood that he’s about to be arrested for the robbery, and his reaction would in all likelihood reflect that. But you have an example already of someone who doesn’t think that situation meant with a high degree of likelihood that he’s about to be arrested - me. Why couldn’t Brown think the same? ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/692 "2014-08-15T16:35:06Z")
> [@Bayard](#): > > Not really. I find it somewhat more interesting that the Ferguson cops failed to mention it till today. Typically, cops don’t release anything until they have investigated it. I wouldn’t expect them to mention it until they were ready to proceed with their case. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/693 "2014-08-15T16:35:28Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > In a court of law. On a MB, that is how it works. Not where the implication is that the shooting was somehow justified by this. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/694 "2014-08-15T16:39:21Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Not where the implication is that the shooting was somehow justified by this. The other side of the coin. If this was a felony stop by the officer, why didn’t he already have his gun drawn? ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/695 "2014-08-15T16:39:35Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > But you have an example already of someone who doesn’t think that situation meant with a high degree of likelihood that he’s about to be arrested - me. Why couldn’t Brown think the same? WADR, I don’t think this is any room for serious doubt about this issue, and I’m not going to get bogged down arguing it, so we’ll have to leave it here. > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Not where the implication is that the shooting was somehow justified by this. That’s a completely unrelated matter. If this guy’s lawyer admitted he did it, then we can say he did it without worrying about inserting “suspected”. The implications are another matter. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/696 "2014-08-15T16:44:06Z")
He was a suspect in a savage shoving incident, and still had the weapon on his person, being located on the end of his arms! As to the other guy, the report suggests that Brown handed him a box of cigars, which he returned. > [@](#): > > “…Meanwhile, Johnson sets the box he was handed back on the counter…” ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/697 "2014-08-15T16:45:58Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Roughly an hour. I don’t know what began at 11, but according to the [incident report](http://www.scribd.com/doc/236905827/Ferguson-Incident-Report), the call came in at 11:51. Roughly 10 minutes. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/698 "2014-08-15T16:46:24Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > WADR, I don’t think this is any room for serious doubt about this issue, and I’m not going to get bogged down arguing it, so we’ll have to leave it here. I would’ve said that my believing something was pretty good reason to have serious doubt that a person could not believe that thing, but hey, it’s your mind. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/699 "2014-08-15T16:47:27Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > Sure it is. There’s any number of things it could be. > [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > Do you care to respond seriously? I think _you_ set the threshold for serious. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/700 "2014-08-15T16:49:38Z")
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