# Ferguson, MO **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 12, 2014, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354 "2014-08-12T04:51:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 39
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/761 "2014-08-15T19:06:31Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > I can’t say I’m anywhere near the biggest WWII buff, but by 1945? Pretty damn. I wouldn’t have thought you’d have been passed on even before that point, honestly. Open to correction, though. He would have been on the Russian front far before '45! By 1945 schoolboys and old men were being trained to defend Berlin with sharped broomsticks. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/762 "2014-08-15T19:09:06Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > It has a good chance of saving the life of the next person to encounter him. If he’s so far gone he’s assaulting cops who knows what he’d do. So anyone who assaults a cop should be shot even after the confrontation because “who knows what he’d do next?” > [@Sicks\_Ate](#): > > And on top of that, someone mentioned above…if he thought he was contacting felony suspects, why the hell wasn’t he treating it as a felony stop? What does this mean? ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/763 "2014-08-15T19:11:08Z")
> [@Sicks\_Ate](#): > > Bullshit, I’ll put it simply: if the cop thought they were suspects from the beginning, it would be the first thing the PD would have said in their comments about the incident. > > So the narrative, whatever it has been, remains. Or not mentioning it until the investigation reaches a certain point means they could investigate and interview without interference from the populous or the swarms of press. Not saying it was the right tactic. But there is no need to jump to conspiracy. Although it doesn’t seem to matter. There are already quotes from protestors saying they think some ILM level CGI going on faking the store video. > [@Debaser](#): > > This seems reasonable to me. Not that they should shoot every felon who flees. But I can certainly imagine circumstances where it would be appropriate. > > Let’s say he robbed the store. Cop rolls up to question him. He reaches into the cop car, beats the cop, and tries to get the cops gun. He fails to grab it. He runs away. I’d say shooting him in the back is a reasonable thing to do at that point. > > It has a good chance of saving the life of the next person to encounter him. If he’s so far gone he’s assaulting cops who knows what he’d do. > > Again, I note that this is theoretical. We don’t yet know if this is what happened. But I can certainly think of plausible scenarios where shooting him in the back is reasonable. Was there an autopsy released that I didn’t see? If the autopsy shows that he was far away or fleeing then the officer is 100% in the wrong. Even if he was beaten just before. The fleeing felon doctrine was thrown out by Tenn v Garner in 1985. Police can not shoot a fleeing felon except under certain justifications that were not met here. If the autopsy shows wounds consistent with a struggle then things look a lot different. ---
**Author:** ![Sinaptics](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Sinaptics](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaptics)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/764 "2014-08-15T19:12:19Z")
> [@El\_Kabong](#): > > With that guy in New York getting choked to death while selling loose cigarettes, and Brown now suspected of stealing a box of cigars, is there any remaining doubt that smoking kills? Thus he was possessing a lethal instrument and had to be shot. QED ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/765 "2014-08-15T19:14:09Z")
Brown’s family now saying _ **release of the video** _ is an attempt to _ **smear his character** _. Not, like, what the video clearly shows, or anything. EDIT: The Ferguson Police chief is on TV rig **ht now** saying they had numerous Freedom of Information requests for the video. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/766 "2014-08-15T19:18:27Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > So anyone who assaults a cop should be shot even after the confrontation because “who knows what he’d do next?” Yes. IMHO. I’m not a lawyer so I’m not saying it’s legal because I don’t know. But it’s reasonable to me. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/767 "2014-08-15T19:19:36Z")
Not to me. ---
**Author:** ![Sinaptics](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Sinaptics](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaptics)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/768 "2014-08-15T19:20:33Z")
Apparently, per the police chief, the robbery wasn’t the reason for the stop: > [@](#): > > Chief Jackson: “The initial contact between Michael Brown and the officer did not relate to the robbery.” [http://huff.to/1m2zFKx](http://huff.to/1m2zFKx) I was skeptical, but you called it Sicks. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/769 "2014-08-15T19:21:09Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > Was there an autopsy released that I didn’t see? If the autopsy shows that he was far away or fleeing then the officer is 100% in the wrong. Even if he was beaten just before. The fleeing felon doctrine was thrown out by Tenn v Garner in 1985. Police can not shoot a fleeing felon except under certain justifications that were not met here. If the autopsy shows wounds consistent with a struggle then things look a lot different. Wikipedia has a page on the [Fleeing Felon Rule](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fleeing_felon_rule). It says: > [@](#): > > At Common law, the Fleeing Felon Rule permits the use of force, including deadly force, against an individual who is suspected of a felony and is in clear flight.[citation needed] Force may be used by the victim, bystanders, or police officers.[citation needed] In some jurisprudence failure to use such force was a misdemeanor which could result in a fine or imprisonment.[citation needed] According to David Caplan "Immediate stopping of the fleeing felon, whether actually or presumably dangerous, was deemed absolutely necessary for the security of the people in a free state, and for maintaining the “public security.” … "[citation needed] Indeed, it has been said that the social policy of the common law in this matter was not only to threaten dangerous felons and hence deter them, but was also to induce them to “surrender peaceably” if they dared commit inherently dangerous felonies, rather than allow them to “escape trial for their crimes.” Makes sense so far. > [@](#): > > Under U.S. law the fleeing felon rule was limited to non-lethal force in most cases by Tennessee v. Garner, 471 U.S. 1 (1985). The justices held that deadly force “may not be used unless necessary to prevent the escape and the officer has probable cause to believe that the suspect poses a significant threat of death or serious bodily harm to the officer or others.” Can a lawyer interpret this for me? The way that reads it seems if someone was punching a cop in the face moments before the shooting they would certainly be a “significant thread of serious bodily harm to the officer or others” even if they are running away with their hands up. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/770 "2014-08-15T19:23:37Z")
**Holy Shit!** :eek: In the same interview, the Police Chief claims/confirms the shooter **was not aware of the robbery** when he stopped Brown! :eek: So, you folk upthread were correct on this point. This gets weirder and weirder… Edit: Ninja’d! ---
**Author:** ![Jay4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f1d935/32.png) [@Jay4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jay4)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/771 "2014-08-15T19:24:05Z")
> [@Gatopescado](#): > > Brown’s family now saying _ **release of the video** _ is an attempt to _ **smear his character** _. lol,typical “mah baby didnt do nothin hes a good boy” ---
**Author:** ![Cubsfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Cubsfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cubsfan)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/772 "2014-08-15T19:26:41Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > So anyone who assaults a cop should be shot even after the confrontation because "who knows what he’d do next?"What does this mean? “After the confrontation”. What does that mean? When does “after” start? 5 seconds? 1 second? 15 seconds? 5 minutes? This was a 300lb man who moments before being shot was tangled up with a police officer who was probably outweighed by 100lbs. The primary witness who told everyone that MB had his hands up and was surrendering was also the guy who was part of the robbery 10 minutes earlier. Then a few more people jumped on that train. I don’t find ANYONE believable at this point and the response by the police totally fucked everything up because THAT certainly was fucked. Everyone, including MB’s family, should just STFU for a while and try to sort this thing out before enraging even more people. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/773 "2014-08-15T19:27:45Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > Can a lawyer interpret this for me? > > The way that reads it seems if someone was punching a cop in the face moments before the shooting they would certainly be a “significant thread of serious bodily harm to the officer or others” even if they are running away with their hands up. If deadly forced was not used in the felony, then the remainder of the modern fleeing felon rule is essentially just a restatement of self-defense law. If the guy is posing a threat of deadly force to you or others, you can shoot him. Generally speaking, getting punched in the face by a guy who then runs away–much less one who runs away, gets shot, and then kneels down and raises his hands–is not going to justify shooting the guy multiple times in the chest and head. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/774 "2014-08-15T19:29:19Z")
> [@Sinaptics](#): > > Apparently, per the police chief, the robbery wasn’t the reason for the stop: > > [http://huff.to/1m2zFKx](http://huff.to/1m2zFKx) > > I was skeptical, but you called it Sicks. > [@](#): > > Michael Brown’s family is beyond outraged at the devious way the police chief has chosen to disseminate piece mil information in a manner intended to assassinate the character of their son, following such a brutal assassination of his person in broad daylight I would’ve thought that at least one of the three attorneys who signed the statement would know how to spell “piecemeal.” ---
**Author:** ![Sicks\_Ate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Sicks\_Ate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sicks_Ate)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/775 "2014-08-15T19:30:41Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > I would’ve thought that at least one of the three attorneys who signed the statement would know how to spell “piecemeal.” :dubious: A questionable piece of writing, at best. I expect more from attorneys. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/776 "2014-08-15T19:31:47Z")
> [@Jay4](#): > > lol,typical “mah baby didnt do nothin hes a good boy” Here’s an idea. Why don’t you run along now and insert your head into something tight and brown? We’ll call you if we’re running low on stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/777 "2014-08-15T19:32:38Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > Wikipedia has a page on the [Fleeing Felon Rule](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fleeing_felon_rule). > > It says: > > Makes sense so far. > > Can a lawyer interpret this for me? > > The way that reads it seems if someone was punching a cop in the face moments before the shooting they would certainly be a “significant thread of serious bodily harm to the officer or others” even if they are running away with their hands up. What common law says has little meaning once statute or SCOTUS changes it to fit the US Constitution and law. Serious bodily injury has a very specific meaning in law. Getting punched in the face is not enough. Even if he was a danger to punch someone else in the face it is not enough. If you are preventing him from causing someone else to lose life, limb or eyesight then you would be justified. Also if you were actively involved in a fight with a much bigger and stronger person and there was a struggle for the weapon you would be justified in using lethal force. If someone punches you in the face and runs away it is nearly impossible to justify lethal force. ---
**Author:** ![Jay4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f1d935/32.png) [@Jay4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jay4)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/778 "2014-08-15T19:36:30Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > Here’s an idea. Why don’t you run along now and insert your head into something tight and brown? We’ll call you if we’re running low on stupid. here’s an idea,how about you take your head out of the tight and brown thing its been stuck in ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/779 "2014-08-15T19:38:36Z")
> [@Gatopescado](#): > > In the same interview, the Police Chief claims/confirms the shooter **was not aware of the robbery** when he stopped Brown! :eek: > > So, you folk upthread were correct on this point. > > This gets weirder and weirder… It’s certainly an remarkable coincidence. But as noted, what’s more significant is that Brown was likely to have thought he was being stopped for that reason, which would have impacted his reaction. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/780 "2014-08-15T19:39:11Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > If someone punches you in the face and runs away it is nearly impossible to justify lethal force. This is the “Oh No, You Didn’t!” defense. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354.md?page=38) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354.md?page=40)