# Ferguson, MO **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 12, 2014, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354 "2014-08-12T04:51:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/81 "2014-08-13T12:58:46Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > If the police kill someone who was unarmed, it is a miscarriage of justice. Huh? Even if that person is attacking a police officer? Even if he’s going for the officer’s gun? There’s no circumstance where the cops can shoot someone unless they are armed? > [@](#): > > **magellan** thinks the biggest thing wrong with what happened is that people rioted. He’s downplaying the needless death. At this point, the only thing we know happened that was wrong was the rioting. Rioting and looting are clearly wrong. What the police officer did might have been wrong, or might have been completely proper. We don’t know that yet. At this point the only appropriate thing to call “wrong” is the rioting. I’m curious, do other posters here share this insane view that the cops shooting this person MUST be wrong, simply because it happened? If so, I get where you’re coming from, but that’s a misguided attitude. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/82 "2014-08-13T13:25:02Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > If the police kill someone who was unarmed, it is a miscarriage of justice. Bullshit. Words have meanings, try to learn them. “Miscarriage of justice” does not mean “morally wrong” or “unethical”. Not that killing an unarmed person is necessarily either of them, if it’s in self defence or defence of another. The police don’t exist to take beatings from people, and not defend themselves. Allowing _that_ would be wrong. Of course, neither to the police exist to shoot people who _aren’t_ a threat, and there will be an investigation, and quite possibly a trial, to determine if that happened in this case. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/83 "2014-08-13T14:07:56Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > You know we can go back to the last page and read what you posted, right? You might want to try that, then. It’s pretty obvious he was pointing out that the _real story_ is the killing of an unarmed black youth by a police officer. > [@](#): > > Once again, let’s all blame the victims. > > > [@](#): > > > > Even assuming that the police were 110% in the wrong, I never can understand how the gross injustice of a sad even like this one can be made right by looting and damage of property. I just don’t get it. > > Leave it to the right-wing racist assholes to make the story about the looters, not about the innocent unarmed teenager shot dead by police. > > Check Google news right now and find, not one, but at least three recent stories of U.S. police using excessive force, often including death, to subdue people accused of jaywalking or such. In every case the victim is black; the cop white. > > Is outrage by the black community justified? I think so. Is it “human nature” that a few opportunists will take advantage of chaos to commit theft? Were the situation reversed, you can bet that white-skinned red-necked racist assholes would be looting and stealing with both hands. I assume that by victims he is referring to the young black men who have been mistreated by police. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/84 "2014-08-13T14:23:40Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Also, I take back what I said about magellan. He clearly does think the rioters are biggest miscarriage of justice. Say what? Where did I say that? Or imply that. Looting is fucked up. End of discussion. What happened to that kid is largely unknown, from a justice standpoint. A young kid is dead, and that is sad. If it happened the way his friend described, it’s a horror, and there can be no greater miscarriage of justice. But if it went down the way the cops say, then I don’t see the miscarriage of justice. There will be two concurrent investigations into this. One by the local police, the other by the Dept. of Justice. So, do you know something that hasn’t been reported? Because it seems that the justice system seems to be operating just fine. So, I’ll wait to see what the investigations show. On the one hand, I lean toward the victim. He seemed to be a good kid and the cop acted rashly, meanly, or in a panic. Maybe all three. On the other hand, the friend’s story doesn’t so right to me either. So, I’ll wait. That has nothing to do with the looters. They are vandals and thieves. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/85 "2014-08-13T14:28:04Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > I did NOT imply the looters were victims. I can see how a racist moron might try to twist my words to that effect. Correct. You stated it outright. (as **Steophan** and **Debaser** correctly noted) > [@septimus](#): > > I did NOT imply the looters were victims. I can see how a racist moron might try to twist my words to that effect. Correct. You stated it outright. (as **Steophan** and **Debaser** correctly noted) > [@septimus](#): > > I did NOT imply the looters were victims. I can see how a racist moron might try to twist my words to that effect. Correct. You stated it outright. (as **Steophan** and **Debaser** correctly noted) Unfortunately for you, your post is still there, dumbass. > [@septimus](#): > > Before now I just thought of you as an ordinary racist dolt. You’ve now sunk considerably in my estimation. :rolleyes: Oh yes, “you are the stupid”. Well, you are the stupiderer!! Then again, maybe you avoiding what was asked of you was the smartest course of action. The equivalent of you “stopping to dig”. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/86 "2014-08-13T14:29:24Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Say what? Where did I say that? Or imply that. Looting is fucked up. End of discussion. What happened to that kid is largely unknown, from a justice standpoint. A young kid is dead, and that is sad. If it happened the way his friend described, it’s a horror, and there can be no greater miscarriage of justice. But if it went down the way the cops say, then I don’t see the miscarriage of justice. There will be two concurrent investigations into this. One by the local police, the other by the Dept. of Justice. > > So, do you know something that hasn’t been reported? Because it seems that the justice system seems to be operating just fine. So, I’ll wait to see what the investigations show. On the one hand, I lean toward the victim. He seemed to be a good kid and the cop acted rashly, meanly, or in a panic. Maybe all three. On the other hand, the friend’s story doesn’t so right to me either. So, I’ll wait. > > That has nothing to do with the looters. They are vandals and thieves. I think the problem is that people think you’re focusing on the wrong thing. The riots are bad, yes, and the rioters should be punished. But misbehavior on behalf of a police officer is a much more severe and much more important issue than misbehaving private citizens, and that’s what we should be talking about. Criminals will be criminals; that’s not news. That’s what the police are for. Cops, on the other hand, must be criminals - because a criminal cop is infinitely more dangerous than a criminal civilian. \*Quis custodiet ipsos custodes \*and all that. The cops will deal with the riots. We the people will deal with the cops. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/87 "2014-08-13T14:34:43Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I think the problem is that people think you’re focusing on the wrong thing. The riots are bad, yes, and the rioters should be punished. But misbehavior on behalf of a police officer is a much more severe and much more important issue than misbehaving private citizens, and that’s what we should be talking about. Criminals will be criminals; that’s not news. That’s what the police are for. Cops, on the other hand, must be criminals - because a criminal cop is infinitely more dangerous than a criminal civilian. \*Quis custodiet ipsos custodes \*and all that. > > The cops will deal with the riots. We the people will deal with the cops. I would agree with this IF we knew that the cop did something wrong. We don’t. Which is why there are two investigations. I find it odd that so many find it so easy to assume the cop is guilty of what the dead kid’s friend said. Talk about your miscarriage of justice. Guilty! Next. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/88 "2014-08-13T14:41:48Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I assume that by victims he is referring to the young black men who have been mistreated by police. You can go ahead and assume that, but it’s clearly not what he said. He said exactly what we read. The real victims are the looters. You quoted it, so it’s odd you can’t read it. ---
**Author:** ![Sinaptics](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Sinaptics](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaptics)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/89 "2014-08-13T14:43:58Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > C) Or do you think that they _are not_ looking for flat screen TVs and **Air Jordans?** Is it just me or is this part vaguely racist in itself? Kind of like asking why the rioters aren’t looting KFC. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/90 "2014-08-13T14:50:43Z")
> [@Sinaptics](#): > > Is it just me or is this part vaguely racist in itself? Kind of like asking why the rioters aren’t looting KFC. It’s just you. Unless you think it’s vaguely racist to mention anything that a non-white person may like, along with plenty of white folks. And man, those TVs! ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/91 "2014-08-13T14:51:13Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I think the problem is that people think you’re focusing on the wrong thing. The riots are bad, yes, and the rioters should be punished. But misbehavior on behalf of a police officer is a much more severe and much more important issue than misbehaving private citizens, and that’s what we should be talking about. Criminals will be criminals; that’s not news. That’s what the police are for. Cops, on the other hand, must be criminals - because a criminal cop is infinitely more dangerous than a criminal civilian. \*Quis custodiet ipsos custodes \*and all that. > > The cops will deal with the riots. We the people will deal with the cops. I couldn’t disagree more. It’s impossible to imagine a society that doesn’t have the occasional investigation into a police shooting. Because of the nature of their jobs, these things are going to happen. Maybe this was a good shooting, maybe it wasn’t. An investigation will hopefully sort it out. But it’s easy to imagine a society that doesn’t have looting and riots. This is far more concerning and upsetting to many people. The other factor is that the riot hits closer to home. I can see myself being impacted by a riot. I don’t want rioting in any cities near me. I can’t see myself ever being shot by the cops. You know why? Not because of my race. Because even if we believe the version of events Brown’s friend, they were given an order by the police and they ignored it and kept walking. I wouldn’t do something that stupid. Even if we believe the story, it was entirely preventable by the victim. Of course, if we believe the cop’s story then it was a good shooting. But in either case it was entirely preventable. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/92 "2014-08-13T14:54:52Z")
> [@Sinaptics](#): > > Is it just me or is this part vaguely racist in itself? Kind of like asking why the rioters aren’t looting KFC. In before “Of course not! Lots of young people of all ages like Air Jordans! Nothing racist there!” Mind you, **mags** might believe it; the implication, while arguably racist, might well have been unintentional and subconscious. ETA: well fuck. Didn’t refresh before posting. Wasn’t in before anything, alas. But glad to see my prediction was correct. . ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/93 "2014-08-13T14:56:04Z")
> [@Sinaptics](#): > > Is it just me or is this part vaguely racist in itself? Kind of like asking why the rioters aren’t looting KFC. I don’t see how. Unless you think that Blacks are the only ones who want TVs and Air Jordans. In the news, there was a sports/sneaker store being looted. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/94 "2014-08-13T14:56:33Z")
I read Septimus’s post #10 not as an implication that those rioting and looting were the victims, but that black youth who find themselves accosted by police unjustly were the “victims” and the attempt was to focus the discussion on the perceived overall problem of racial mistreatment by police. I could see it read the other way too, but that’s not how it came across. This silly train of thought could have easily been headed off by a a simple clarification of what that post meant, rather than many many posts claiming it did not mean something else. When multiple people misinterpret what you write, it probably wasn’t communicated optimally. Why you would want to focus on that topic and not the immediate looting and rioting is another matter. > [@BigT](#): > > If the police kill someone who was unarmed, it is a miscarriage of justice. You must have left out some stuff, qualifiers or something, because standing alone this statement is not at all how we’ve agreed to set up our justice system. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/95 "2014-08-13T15:03:31Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > You can go ahead and assume that, but it’s clearly not what he said. He said exactly what we read. The real victims are the looters. You quoted it, so it’s odd you can’t read it. Alas, I have great difficulty with reading words that aren’t there. And taking things out of context for no apparent purpose other than to derail a discussion. > [@Debaser](#): > > The other factor is that the riot hits closer to home. I can see myself being impacted by a riot. I don’t want rioting in any cities near me. I can’t see myself ever being shot by the cops. > > You know why? Not because of my race. Because even if we believe the version of events Brown’s friend, they were given an order by the police and they ignored it and kept walking. I wouldn’t do something that stupid. Even if we believe the story, it was entirely preventable by the victim. > > Of course, if we believe the cop’s story then it was a good shooting. But in either case it was entirely preventable. You’re quite right: it’s not because of your race. If you were black, and faced a reasonable probability of being shot dead merely because of your race, you might weigh the relative importance of these issues differently. I mean, seriously? He kept walking, so it was his fault he got killed? That is **Smapti** -level police apoligism. ---
**Author:** ![Sinaptics](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Sinaptics](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaptics)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/96 "2014-08-13T15:33:27Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I don’t see how. Unless you think that Blacks are the only ones who want TVs and Air Jordans. In the news, there was a sports/sneaker store being looted. It was the Jordan’s especially. They’re somewhat of a status symbol in some low-income minority neighborhoods. I wasn’t aware that a sports store got robbed. I’ve only seen convenience stores on the news. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/97 "2014-08-13T16:06:20Z")
> [@Sinaptics](#): > > It was the Jordan’s especially. They’re somewhat of a status symbol in some low-income minority neighborhoods. > > I wasn’t aware that a sports store got robbed. I’ve only seen convenience stores on the news. Here’s what I saw: [http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/08/11/protest-over-missouri-teenager-shooting-by-police-turns-to-looting-vandalism/](http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/08/11/protest-over-missouri-teenager-shooting-by-police-turns-to-looting-vandalism/) Go to 0:07. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/98 "2014-08-13T16:17:45Z")
How about …let’s wait for the facts to emerge about the shooting, before judging? ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/99 "2014-08-13T16:21:41Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Because you’re “understanding” them. And? Someone understanding a crime doesn’t mean they would commit it. I understand why bank robbers rob banks - they want the money. That doesn’t mean I would rob a bank. It just means I understand why people would. ---
**Author:** ![Sinaptics](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Sinaptics](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaptics)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/100 "2014-08-13T16:24:54Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > And? > > Someone understanding a crime doesn’t mean they would commit it. > > I understand why bank robbers rob banks - they want the money. That doesn’t mean I would rob a bank. It just means I understand why people would. And now you’re justifying bank robbery!!?!?!? Guess there’s just no debating with you 😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354.md?page=6)