# Ferguson, MO **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 12, 2014, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354 "2014-08-12T04:51:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 54
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2014, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1061 "2014-08-17T22:35:30Z")
For some reason, I’m thinking very hard on the last thing I said in my last post… ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2014, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1062 "2014-08-17T22:36:53Z")
> [@JEngelman](#): > > What about the Jews? For over a thousand years in Europe they faced discrimination, persecution, pogroms, and finally the Holocaust. > > Nevertheless, as soon as they were given a chance to show what they could do they began to excel intellectually and economically. In America, Jews were “given a chance” long before black people were, and black people in America were historically treated much, much worse than Jews in America. > [@](#): > > When blacks were given a chance to compete athletically they excelled too. Their academic performance has hardly improved since the civil rights legislation was signed. Black rates of crime and illegitimacy have risen significantly. Crime has gone down significantly, including among black people, since the 80s and 90s. At the same time that black rates of crime increased, white rates increased as well. > [@](#): > > This suggests the existence of genetic differences between the races. No it doesn’t. Among African Americans, percentage of African ancestry does not correlate at all to academic test scores, and there’s no data that suggests it correlates at all to criminality either. > [@](#): > > Black behavior and performance since the civil rights legislation was passed into law substantiates arguments presented against that legislation before it was signed. No it doesn’t. It was wrong to use violence and discriminatory laws and rules to prevent black people from voting, and to relegate black people to inferior government services, and to prevent black people from competing economically before Civil Rights, and it remains wrong after Civil Rights. ---
**Author:** ![Bozuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2014, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1063 "2014-08-17T22:37:46Z")
> [@JEngelman](#): > > What about the Jews? For over a thousand years in Europe they faced discrimination, persecution, pogroms, and finally the Holocaust. > > Nevertheless, as soon as they were given a chance to show what they could do they began to excel intellectually and economically. > > When blacks were given a chance to compete athletically they excelled too. Their academic performance has hardly improved since the civil rights legislation was signed. Black rates of crime and illegitimacy have risen significantly. > > This suggests the existence of genetic differences between the races. > > Black behavior and performance since the civil rights legislation was passed into law substantiates arguments presented against that legislation before it was signed. The treatment of Jews in Europe for much of the last thousand years has been significantly different to the treatment of blacks in Europe or America. ---
**Author:** ![JEngelman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e79b87/32.png) [@JEngelman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JEngelman)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2014, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1064 "2014-08-17T22:39:08Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > These improving opinions of black people are because, over time, people are, on average, getting smarter and more knowledgeable, in general. Are opinions really improving, or are whites reluctant to express how they really feel? Also, what is it that whites with positive feelings know about blacks that whites with negative feelings do not know? 😕 Black academic performance is not improving. The decline in the black crime rate can be attributed to the tripling of the prison population since 1980. Since the civil rights legislation was signed the black illegitimacy rate has risen to a jaw dropping 72.3 percent. :eek: [http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/329432/latest-statistics-illegitimate-births-roger-clegg](http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/329432/latest-statistics-illegitimate-births-roger-clegg) ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2014, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1065 "2014-08-17T22:41:47Z")
> [@JEngelman](#): > > Are opinions really improving, or are whites reluctant to express how they really feel? Opinions really are improving. Do you have any data that suggests otherwise, or are you just pulling shit out of your ass? > [@](#): > > Also, what is it that whites with positive feelings know about blacks that whites with negative feelings do not know? 😕 They probably know lots of things about history, science, and morality that racists don’t know. Most racists are ignorant, as well as being shitheads in general. > [@](#): > > Black academic performance is not improving. It is by some measures. > [@](#): > > The decline in the black crime rate can be attributed to the tripling of the prison population since 1980. No it can’t. The two statistics do not correlate well at all. > [@](#): > > Since the civil rights legislation was signed the black illegitimacy rate has risen to a jaw dropping 72.3 percent. If you want to look for numbers to justify your hatred, that’s your business. ---
**Author:** ![JEngelman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e79b87/32.png) [@JEngelman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JEngelman)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2014, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1066 "2014-08-17T22:41:49Z")
> [@Bozuit](#): > > The treatment of Jews in Europe for much of the last thousand years has been significantly different to the treatment of blacks in Europe or America. Large numbers of Jews were killed in the pogroms. Very few blacks were killed. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2014, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1067 "2014-08-17T22:44:39Z")
Oh, cracker, _please!_ ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2014, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1068 "2014-08-17T22:46:22Z")
> [@JEngelman](#): > > Are opinions really improving, or are whites reluctant to express how they really feel? I totally understand your desperate desire for the answer to be the latter so you can continue to deny your racism, but it’s not. ---
**Author:** ![JEngelman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e79b87/32.png) [@JEngelman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JEngelman)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2014, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1069 "2014-08-17T22:47:14Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > It is by some measures. According to thge U.S. Department of Education, National Center for Education Statistics. (2013). Digest of Education Statistics, 2012 (NCES 2014-015) the race gap in SAT scores has increased since the school year of 1986 - 87. > **[Fast Facts: SAT scores (171)](https://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=171)** > > The NCES Fast Facts Tool provides quick answers to many education questions (National Center for Education Statistics). Get answers on Early Childhood Education, Elementary and Secondary Education and Higher Education here. There is a similar gap in ACT scores. > **[SAT and ACT Scores by Race/Ethnicity](http://www.blackexcel.org/06-sat-act-scores-by-race-ethnicity.htm)** > > SAT and ACT Scores broken down by Race/Ethnicity. The failure of No Child Left Behind provides fresh and very public evidence of assertions made by Charles Murray and others. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2014, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1070 "2014-08-17T22:48:56Z")
You’d think that if racists thought their opinions were really that justified, to the point of expressing them that openly in a public forum, they’d be more proud of the “racist” moniker. > [@JEngelman](#): > > According to thge U.S. Department of Education, National Center for Education Statistics. (2013). Digest of Education Statistics, 2012 (NCES 2014-015) the race gap in SAT scores has increased since the school year of 1986 - 87. 1986? Some twenty years after the major civil rights legislation? Obviously this means that Reagan’s policies had major ill effects on African Americans. Thank you for pointing that out. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![JEngelman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e79b87/32.png) [@JEngelman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JEngelman)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2014, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1071 "2014-08-17T22:50:44Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > You’d think that if racists thought their opinions were really that justified, to the point of expressing them that openly in a public forum, they’d be more proud of the “racist” moniker. > [@jayjay](#): > > I totally understand your desperate desire for the answer to be the latter so you can continue to deny your racism, but it’s not. If a racist is one who respects credible data about race differences, that is what I am. For too long the fear of being called a “racist” has interfered with the dialogue on race liberals call for while hypocritically suppressing. Now that you have called me a “racist” try to disprove my arguments using facts and reason. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2014, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1072 "2014-08-17T22:54:49Z")
> [@JEngelman](#): > > According to thge U.S. Department of Education, National Center for Education Statistics. (2013). Digest of Education Statistics, 2012 (NCES 2014-015) the race gap in SAT scores has increased since the school year of 1986 - 87. According to the NAEP, the achievement gap has [decreased significantly](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_achievement_gap_in_the_United_States#Long-term_trends) since the 1970s. > [@](#): > > The failure of No Child Left Behind provides fresh and very public evidence of assertions made by Charles Murray and others. No it doesn’t. NCLB was a shitty bill. It’s not surprising when shitty bills don’t succeed. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2014, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1073 "2014-08-17T22:56:01Z")
> [@JEngelman](#): > > If a racist is one who respects credible data about race differences, that is what I am. For too long the fear of being called a “racist” has interfered with the dialogue on race liberals call for while hypocritically suppressing. > > Now that you have called me a “racist” try to disprove my arguments using facts and reason. Your arguments have been disproved consistently in this thread after pretty much every post you’ve made. Your arguments are shit, and further, it’s all old shit. All old shit that we’ve seen many times, again and again, on this board. You’re offering nothing new here – just the same tired, racist bullshit that’s been refuted again and again. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2014, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1074 "2014-08-17T22:57:28Z")
Yeah, sure, a “dialogue” that starts with the assumption that African Americans are inherently inferior. That’s not much of a start to a “dialogue” to me. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2014, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1075 "2014-08-17T22:59:05Z")
> [@JEngelman](#): > > If a racist is one who respects credible data about race differences, that is what I am. For too long the fear of being called a “racist” has interfered with the dialogue on race liberals call for while hypocritically suppressing. > > Now that you have called me a “racist” try to disprove my arguments using facts and reason. I’m sorry. You must be a “scientific racialist”, and your citing of Charles Murray’s massive bell-shaped pile of bullshit proves it. Thanks for playing. We’ve smashed scientific racialism countless times on this message board. Ask **Chief Pedant**. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2014, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1076 "2014-08-17T23:00:58Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Ask **Chief Pedant**. Please don’t! **CP** has shown no ability to see the weaknesses in his own arguments. ---
**Author:** ![JEngelman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e79b87/32.png) [@JEngelman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JEngelman)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2014, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1077 "2014-08-17T23:25:41Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > According to the NAEP, the achievement gap has [decreased significantly](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_achievement_gap_in_the_United_States#Long-term_trends) since the 1970s. > > No it doesn’t. NCLB was a shitty bill. It’s not surprising when shitty bills don’t succeed. The gap still yawns. This is what The New York Times has to say about No Child Left Behind. By SAM DILLON Published: November 20, 2006 Despite concerted efforts by educators, the test-score gaps are so large that, on average, African-American and Hispanic students in high school can read and do arithmetic at only the average level of whites in junior high school. “The gaps between African-Americans and whites are showing very few signs of closing,” Michael T. Nettles, a senior vice president at the Educational Testing Service, said in a paper he presented recently at Columbia University. One ethnic minority, Asians, generally fares as well as or better than whites. > **[Schools Slow in Closing Gaps Between Races (Published 2006)](https://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/20/education/20gap.html?pagewanted=1&_r=2&ei=5070&en=e1b56aad3e0f9451&ex=1165035600&)** > > As Congress prepares to consider renewing the No Child Left Behind law next year, studies show that disparities in test scores continue. In Atlanta there was a massive cheating scandal. Teachers erased the wrong answers of black students, and wrote in the right answers. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2014, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1078 "2014-08-17T23:27:12Z")
> [@JEngelman](#): > > The gap still yawns. Yes, it still exists. So what? By some measures it has shrunk. Hopefully it will continue to shrink the future. We’re in the absolute dawn of actual equal opportunity, if we’ve even reached equal opportunity – it shouldn’t be surprising in the least that a gap exists. > [@](#): > > This is what The New York Times has to say about No Child Left Behind. Who cares? It was a shitty bill. Why would anyone be surprised if a shitty bills fails? ---
**Author:** ![fachverwirrt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/94ad74/32.png) [@fachverwirrt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fachverwirrt)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2014, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1079 "2014-08-17T23:27:35Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > Is Ferguson a “black ghetto,” per se? Asking honestly, because in the videos I’ve seen, it just looks like a fairly unremarkable small town. The 2010 census (by way of Wikipedia) says it’s 67.4% black and 29.3% white. Does that demographic alone qualify it as a ghetto? No, Ferguson isn’t remotely ghetto. It’s a very nice town with some great restaurants and an excellent farmer’s market. The Ferguson/Florissant/Berkeley/Dellwood area tends to lower middle class and has a higher poverty rate than a lot of the rest of the county, but really doesn’t have a particularly violent reputation (the last week not withstanding). ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1080 "2014-08-18T00:11:39Z")
"Slim? Yeah, hi, it’s me. Listen, shit is weird, I think maybe I’m having a flashback. Yeah, I know, I know, no sucha thing, but…look, I’m at that message board, you know?..yeah, smartest and hippest, that’s the one…and I’m hallucinating a scientific racist! \*Fuck! \* Can you read a hallucination, ever happen to…yeah, sure, good idea, have a look. Yeah, go to message boards, and The Pit and its the one about Ferguson…yeah, I know, man, bummer…go to the last page, and…you do? You see it\* too\*? _Motherfucker!_ We’re both having the _same_ bad trip! Did we ever have any of the brown acid?.." [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354.md?page=53) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354.md?page=55)