# Ferguson, MO **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 12, 2014, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354 "2014-08-12T04:51:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 57
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1121 "2014-08-18T12:34:45Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > A bit puzzled by the lack of any drug testing information. Why? Toxicology testing takes a few weeks. Every time a celebrity ODs we have the same waiting period. ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1122 "2014-08-18T12:37:39Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > One shot to the leg would have stopped him, if that was your intent. That’s straight out of Hollywood, not the real world. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1123 "2014-08-18T12:40:41Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > If you’re in a war, yes. If you’re trying to neutralize a threat from an unarmed person, not so much. One shot to the leg would have stopped him, if that was your intent. It could almost be understandable to shoot him if he was grappling with you or close enough to start doing so. But he was neither of these. He was shot six times from a distance, with intent to kill, for no justifiable reason. This post isn’t just pure ignorance. It’s worse than that. It’s condensed ignorance. First of all, the idea of shooting someone in the leg is just silly. Second of all, you keep repeating page after page what the intentions of the officer were as if you know. Were you there? If not, you don’t have any idea what happened just like the rest of us don’t. But the picture is becoming more clear. The more facts come to light the better things are looking for the officer who did the shooting. Simply stating that you feel it’s murder without any regard for the actual facts around what happened is just spreading ignorance, pure and simple. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1124 "2014-08-18T12:42:17Z")
> [@Cartooniverse](#): > > Heaven forbid people in other cities display outrage over the killing of their unarmed youth. Serious question for you and anyone else who feels this way: Should we let them riot? After all, an unarmed kid got shot. Should we let the people of that community blow off some steam for a few days and burn a few buildings? ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1125 "2014-08-18T12:59:35Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > This post isn’t just pure ignorance. It’s worse than that. It’s condensed ignorance. > > First of all, the idea of shooting someone in the leg is just silly. > > Second of all, you keep repeating page after page what the intentions of the officer were as if you know. Were you there? If not, you don’t have any idea what happened just like the rest of us don’t. But the picture is becoming more clear. The more facts come to light the better things are looking for the officer who did the shooting. > > Simply stating that you feel it’s murder without any regard for the actual facts around what happened is just spreading ignorance, pure and simple. If he was close enough to be an imminent threat, one would think that a shot to the leg would be fairly easy. When you shoot someone six times, it’s fair to say he was shooting to kill. When that someone doesn’t pose an imminent threat to you, it’s murder. The legal system will sort it out, but I believe he should be charged. ---
**Author:** ![BubbaDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bubbadog/32/333_2.png) [@BubbaDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BubbaDog)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1126 "2014-08-18T13:12:17Z")
> [@kidchameleon](#): > > That’s straight out of Hollywood, not the real world. And yet he keeps repeating it. Whether or not the cop is wrong this statement about shooting a leg to just “stop” somebody is ridiculous. Depending on where the bullet hits the targeted person could be in any condition from fully mobile to bleeding out in seconds. There’s no magical place on the human body where it’s “safe” to shoot them. Anywhere can be fatal. A cop firing his gun even once is an attempt to kill. Justification is the subject afterwards. The idea of a “wing shot” belongs only on screenplays. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1127 "2014-08-18T13:15:36Z")
> [@BubbaDog](#): > > And yet he keeps repeating it. > > Whether or not the cop is wrong this statement about shooting a leg to just “stop” somebody is ridiculous. Depending on where the bullet hits the targeted person could be in any condition from fully mobile to bleeding out in seconds. > > There’s no magical place on the human body where it’s “safe” to shoot them. Anywhere can be fatal. > > A cop firing his gun even once is an attempt to kill. Justification is the subject afterwards. The idea of a “wing shot” belongs only on screenplays. Fine, a leg wound can be fatal. Given a choice between being shot in the leg and in the chest, I’ll take the leg. Still, the fact remains he shot six times, made no attempt to resuscitate him, and did not call for medical assistance. He meant to kill and needs to be brought to justice. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1128 "2014-08-18T13:19:56Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > **If** he was close enough to be an imminent threat, one would think that a shot to the leg would be fairly easy. When you shoot someone six times, it’s fair to say he was shooting to kill. When that someone doesn’t pose an imminent threat to you, it’s murder. The legal system will sort it out, but I believe he should be charged. Formatting added to highlight the flaw in your reasoning. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1129 "2014-08-18T13:21:01Z")
Phillip of Macedonia: “You are advised to submit without further delay, for if I bring my army on your land, I will destroy your farms, slay your people and raze your city.” Spartan reply: “If.” ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1130 "2014-08-18T13:22:07Z")
Both liberals and conservatives have stupid tropes that get brought out every time there is a police shooting, and this is one of the worst. If someone is a threat to life or limb, you’d be a fool to do anything but take your best shot at them. Even if a leg shot is only 20% less likely to incapacitate than a shot to center mass, you’d never take a 20% chance of death or serious injury in any other context. It makes no sense. If he shot the guy, he absolutely did mean to kill him. That’s correct. You should not shoot at someone you don’t mean to kill. That’s not the issue here. Either he was justified in meaning to do so or not. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1131 "2014-08-18T13:24:11Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > Formatting added to highlight the flaw in your reasoning. And if he wasn’t close enough to be an imminent threat, no shot was needed. ---
**Author:** ![BubbaDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bubbadog/32/333_2.png) [@BubbaDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BubbaDog)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1132 "2014-08-18T13:25:01Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Fine, a leg wound can be fatal. Given a choice between being shot in the leg and in the chest, I’ll take the leg. Still, the fact remains he shot six times, made no attempt to resuscitate him, and did not call for medical assistance. He meant to kill and needs to be brought to justice. You don’t get choices when being shot at. I’m not disputing anything you said here. But again, every shot is a shot to kill. That’s training. I believe that the legal system will bring him to justice. That’s the afterwards part that I mentioned above. You seem to be all fired up about whether or not the cop was attempting to kill the man. I’m just trying to help you understand that yes, he was trying to kill the man. Each shot was an attempt to kill. The big question about justice is whether each shot or any was justified. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1133 "2014-08-18T13:27:16Z")
> [@BubbaDog](#): > > You don’t get choices when being shot at. I’m not disputing anything you said here. But again, every shot is a shot to kill. That’s training. > > I believe that the legal system will bring him to justice. That’s the afterwards part that I mentioned above. > > You seem to be all fired up about whether or not the cop was attempting to kill the man. I’m just trying to help you understand that yes, he was trying to kill the man. > > Each shot was an attempt to kill. The big question about justice is whether each shot or any was justified. I think we’re in agreement. The cop meant to kill him. I say he didn’t need to do it. There are other ways to deal with unarmed belligerent men. No pepper spray, mace, or taser in the car? ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1134 "2014-08-18T13:27:34Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > And **if** he wasn’t close enough to be an imminent threat, no shot was needed. You did it again! ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1135 "2014-08-18T13:29:50Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > Doesn’t really do that either, since Dr. Baden did not have access to Michael Brown’s clothing. There is no entry wound on Brown’s body from the back; doesn’t necessarily mean no bullets were fired at his back, and doesn’t contradict testimony that Brown turned around after being “struck” from the back. Could have felt his clothing being hit. > > The autopsy findings certainly don’t corroborate that Brown was struck from the rear, and it seems very unlikely that an examination of his clothing would do so either. But I don’t understand this idea that Dr. Baden’s findings were conclusive of anything other than the wounds themselves and which ones were fatal. If you’re desperate to believe something you can always find ways to twist this way and that way to keep your belief alive. OK, so it’s possible under some scenario that the officer shot at his back and missed him or hit his clothing. But why is there this tremendous need to keep the martyred victim story going in the face of the accumulation of evidence suggesting otherwise? Over the past few days we’ve learned that he was not a gentle giant but rather a violent thug, that an unscripted witness commenting before the story became a national cause celebre said he was shot while charging at the cop, and that all the shots came from the front. Anything is possible and it’s good to keep an open mind. But the emerging evidence is all pointing in the same direction. There’s no reason to keep grasping at the original poignant narrative, struggling to keep it alive against the odds. At this point, it looks increasingly likely that it was a justified shooting. Could change, of course. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1136 "2014-08-18T13:32:46Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > If he was close enough to be an imminent threat, one would think that a shot to the leg would be fairly easy. When you shoot someone six times, it’s fair to say he was shooting to kill. When that someone doesn’t pose an imminent threat to you, it’s murder. The legal system will sort it out, but I believe he should be charged. I don’t know that second guessing the actual number of shots fired is helpful here. Once a cop has made the decision to shoot, we should all know by now with as many times as we’ve run through this sort of thing, he really does need to bring the suspect down. The question is whether the initial decision to use deadly force was justified, which in part hinges on details of the initial stop and what exactly occurred in the struggle at the vehicle, and on what occurred outside of the vehicle. But it doesn’t hinge on the number of shots, I think. I don’t know who in this thread has ever been threatened by a 6’4" 300 pound man but I think you can imagine that IF you’ve shot him and IF he then continues to approach you, it’s not to congratulate you on your marksmanship. I’m not saying that’s what happened here, there’s conflicting stories about Brown’s level of aggression and whether he surrendered. There is no definitely established scenario other than that Officer Wilson stopped Michael Brown on the street, there was an altercation at the door of Wilson’s vehicle, this escalated quickly to shots fired by Wilson, who shot Brown to death in the course of events. Can we please give some nods to reality here? Some are pretending that Michael Brown being unarmed could not have posed a lethal threat to Officer Wilson. That seems naïve and willfully blind to the realities of violence. Some are pretending that Wilson was justified in the shooting if Michael Brown in any way showed resistance or aggression. This too seems naïve and also foolish. Naïve in the ignorance of the broad range of policing techniques and abilities, most of which do not leave suspects or citizens dead on the street. Scary foolish in its acceptance of arbitrary lethal authority. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1137 "2014-08-18T13:36:27Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > If you’re desperate to believe something you can always find ways to twist this way and that way to keep your belief alive. OK, so it’s possible under some scenario that the officer shot at his back and missed him or hit his clothing. But why is there this tremendous need to keep the martyred victim story going in the face of the accumulation of evidence suggesting otherwise? Did you miss this sentence: “The autopsy findings certainly don’t corroborate that Brown was struck from the rear, and it seems very unlikely that an examination of his clothing would do so either.” My entire point was not to twist this very basic autopsy report into a corroborative document for one scenario, or to use it as “proof” that a conflicting scenario is incorrect. That doesn’t appear to have been Dr. Baden’s purpose, and the report makes no claims regarding justification or sequence of events. People should stop reading more into it than is there. (Sequence other than “the head shot(s) were probably the last wounds inflicted.”) ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1138 "2014-08-18T13:40:09Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > Did you miss this sentence: “The autopsy findings certainly don’t corroborate that Brown was struck from the rear, and it seems very unlikely that an examination of his clothing would do so either.” > > My entire point was not to twist this very basic autopsy report into a corroborative document for one scenario, or to use it as “proof” that a conflicting scenario is incorrect. That doesn’t appear to have been Dr. Baden’s purpose, and the report makes no claims regarding justification or sequence of events. People should stop reading more into it than is there. No, I read that sentence. Your error is in suggesting that the fact that the report does not conclusively prove one scenario also means that the report does not support one scenario. It does. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1139 "2014-08-18T13:44:11Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Your error is in suggesting that the fact that the report does not conclusively prove one scenario also means that the report does not support one scenario. It does. I don’t read **xenophon41** to be doing the latter. His response was to a post seemingly reading the autopsy as conclusively disproving that he was shot at while facing away from the officer. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1140 "2014-08-18T13:48:58Z")
Would it be fair to say that the autopsy report makes the claim he was shot while facing away from the officer considerably less likely? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354.md?page=56) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354.md?page=58)