# Ferguson, MO **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 12, 2014, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354 "2014-08-12T04:51:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 58
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1141 "2014-08-18T13:49:17Z")
Thanks **Richard Parker**. That’s exactly what my response was addressing. I’ll add that any imagined scenario with which no physical evidence disagrees can be supported by the evidence; this does not give dispositive support to those scenarios however. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1142 "2014-08-18T13:51:36Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > Thanks **Richard Parker**. That’s exactly what my response was addressing. My apologies, then. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1143 "2014-08-18T13:53:05Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Would it be fair to say that the autopsy report makes the claim he was shot while facing away from the officer considerably less likely? I hope everyone can agree with that. Other evidence from the scene would have to be gathered to address the question of whether shots were fired by Wilson while Brown ran away from him, but I don’t see how that could be entirely corroborated in the absence of audio-video records. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1144 "2014-08-18T13:56:28Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Would it be fair to say that the autopsy report makes the claim he was shot while facing away from the officer considerably less likely? Certainly a lot less likely that Brown was struck (in the clothing) before turning around. And marginally less likely that he was under fire at all while facing away, though obviously it’s still well within the realm of plausibility that the first few shots missed and are what caused Brown to turn around. As a witness, it would be pretty hard to distinguish between someone getting shot at (and missed) and turning around to a hail of bullets and someone being winged and turning around to a hail of bullets. So I wouldn’t put a lot of my assessment of credibility on whether he was hit before turning around (depending on the precise details of the narrative of course). Do we know how many shots were fired, total? ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1145 "2014-08-18T14:02:37Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > And marginally less likely that he was under fire at all while facing away, though obviously it’s still well within the realm of plausibility that the first few shots missed and are what caused Brown to turn around. > > As a witness, it would be pretty hard to distinguish between someone getting shot at (and missed) and turning around to a hail of bullets and someone being winged and turning around to a hail of bullets. So I wouldn’t put a lot of my assessment of credibility on whether he was hit before turning around (depending on the precise details of the narrative of course). Right. But you’d be assuming that the cop’s aim suddenly improved when he turned around, such that he missed all his shots before that and suddenly was able to hit him repeatly afterwards. Again, it’s all possible, but becomes less likely. [Unspoken in all this is the a priori assumption about how likely it is that a cop would shoot a fleeing suspect in the back to begin with. I tend to think this is generally unlikely, so I would tend to put less weight on that scenario even if the other evidence was ambiguous, but I imagine others here will differ.] ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1146 "2014-08-18T14:07:19Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Right. But you’d be assuming that the cop’s aim suddenly improved when he turned around, such that he missed all his shots before that and suddenly was able to hit him repeatly afterwards. > > Again, it’s all possible, but becomes less likely. Doesn’t seem all that unlikely to me. Maybe he fired a single shot and missed, and then hit 6 of his remaining 11 shots (or something). Maybe he stopped moving when he turned around. Maybe the initial adrenaline rush of shooting at someone subsided a bit and he was more accurate. I think we’d really be peering at tea leaves at this point if we try to put too fine a point on it. The bottom line is that he almost certainly was not hit before turning around, and we simply don’t know whether he was shot at while facing away, but whatever your Bayesian priors were before the autopsy you should be revising the probability downward marginally. > [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > [Unspoken in all this is the a priori assumption about how likely it is that a cop would shoot a fleeing suspect in the back to begin with. I tend to think this is generally unlikely, so I would tend to put less weight on that scenario even if the other evidence was ambiguous, but I imagine others here will differ.] More Bayesian priors. It seems plausible to me that there was some kind of altercation at the car, Brown ran, and the cop shot him. That scenario wouldn’t shock me at all. I have no idea if that’s what happened, obviously. This is just a parlor game until we get a lot more information. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1147 "2014-08-18T14:08:29Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > If he was close enough to be an imminent threat, one would think that a shot to the leg would be fairly easy. Only if one were a low-grade moron. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1148 "2014-08-18T14:11:47Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Right. But you’d be assuming that the cop’s aim suddenly improved when he turned around, such that he missed all his shots before that and suddenly was able to hit him repeatly afterwards. As if the officer was out of the vehicle and running or walking in Brown’s direction until Brown turned around whereupon the officer stopped, planted his feet and assumed a more stable firing position. I’m not suggesting this is what happened, but it’s plausible as an explanation for the inaccuracy of shots fired from a moving shooter at a moving target followed by accurate shots from a stationary shooter at a target falling to the ground. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1149 "2014-08-18T14:15:36Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Only if one were a low-grade moron. In this finest of all discussion forums existing and extinct, even our morons are held to a higher standard. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1150 "2014-08-18T14:27:16Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > In this finest of all discussion forums existing and extinct, even our morons are held to a higher standard. Agreed. Having come to consensus, I am off to loot a liquor store. Anything I can bring back for you? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Cubsfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Cubsfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cubsfan)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1151 "2014-08-18T14:32:22Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > I think we’re in agreement. The cop meant to kill him. I say he didn’t need to do it. There are other ways to deal with unarmed belligerent men. No pepper spray, mace, or taser in the car? You should be a cop. You are clearly the coolest, calmest guy with all the answers on how someone else should act when they feel their lives are in danger. Please, scour the news and let us all know what others should have done when they felt they were in danger too. This should be pretty easy to do sitting behind the protection of a keyboard, detached from the threat, after the fact, thousands of miles away. Shoot him in the leg? You think this is a video game where you keep shooting limbs until the baddie stops advancing? This is real life where dudes on PCP take 20 shots to the chest and keep on coming. You’re a clown. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1152 "2014-08-18T14:36:09Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I am off to loot a liquor store. Anything I can bring back for you? Bring back your arrest report, showing how you were approached and questioned by a peace officer after your looting, who then explained your rights, handcuffed you and took you to a clean holding cell while your paperwork was expeditiously processed. 'Cause that would be a nice change of pace to read about. ---
**Author:** ![What\_the](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f4b2a3/32.png) [@What\_the](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_the)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1153 "2014-08-18T14:41:10Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Agreed. > > Having come to consensus, I am off to loot a liquor store. Anything I can bring back for you? > > Regards, > Shodan I’m guessing the the liquor is either all gone or well guarded by now. ---
**Author:** ![kinoons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/a698b9/32.png) [@kinoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kinoons)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1154 "2014-08-18T14:42:58Z")
The you only shoot to kill narrative is getting old. Let’s all be adults about this please. The use of a firearm in a defensive fashion is to convince the attacker to stop what they’re doing because getting shot hurts or to make them physically incapable of doing so. In either case getting shot does have the nasty side effect of potential death, and as such should not be used lightly. It is very fair to ask why the officer chose to shoot his perceived attacker and why he chose to not use a taser or other physical restraint/compliant device. To say that the officer intended to kill simply because he used his firearm is disingenuous at best. If it turns out that the officer used his firearm in an offensive fashion then the narrative completely changes and he should go to jail for murder. We could all wait until the investigation is complete and then make informed decisions. And, just to add some facts to the discussion: As noted by the CDC in 2001 the vast majority of non self inflicted gunshot wounds were not fatal. [http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5002a1.htm?mobile=nocontent](http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5002a1.htm?mobile=nocontent) ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1155 "2014-08-18T14:46:07Z")
[QUOTE=xenophon41] Bring back your arrest report, showing how you were approached and questioned by a peace officer after your looting, who then explained your rights, handcuffed you and took you to a clean holding cell while your paperwork was expeditiously processed. 'Cause that would be a nice change of pace to read about. [/QUOTE] But what if he shoots me in the front while I’m running away? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1156 "2014-08-18T14:48:56Z")
> [@kinoons](#): > > Let’s all be adults about this please. I wouldn’t hold my breath. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1157 "2014-08-18T14:52:07Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > But what if he shoots me in the front while I’m running away? > > Regards, > Shodan Weren’t you the one just complaining about low grade morons? I’ll use small words: That would make me sad to read about. It would be much gooder to read about police work that doesn’t cause people -even doers of theft- to be dead afterwards. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1158 "2014-08-18T15:03:23Z")
> [@kinoons](#): > > And, just to add some facts to the discussion: > > As noted by the CDC in 2001 the vast majority of non self inflicted gunshot wounds were not fatal. > [Surveillance for Fatal and Nonfatal Firearm-Related Injuries --- United States, 1993--1998](http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5002a1.htm?mobile=nocontent) That does indeed appear to be a fact, but its relevance to the topic is less clear. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1159 "2014-08-18T15:04:19Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Fine, a leg wound can be fatal. Given a choice between being shot in the leg and in the chest, I’ll take the leg. Still, the fact remains he shot six times, made no attempt to resuscitate him, and did not call for medical assistance. He meant to kill and needs to be brought to justice. Give it up, Bob. You are beating a dead horse. Anytime anyone fires a gun at another, they mean to kill. People trained in the use of firearms are taught to shoot for center mass and the probability of killing someone with shots like that is very high. You’ve apparently watched too many re-runs of The Lone Ranger, who always managed to shoot the gun out of someone’s hand in the nick of time or other Hollywood-type BS. The issue is not whether he meant to kill or not. The issue is whether the shooting was justified. And as more and more evidence keeps turning up, it looks like it was. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1160 "2014-08-18T15:04:50Z")
> [@Cubsfan](#): > > This is real life where dudes on PCP take 20 shots to the chest and keep on coming. So how long until that toxicology report comes back? While we wait, anyone want to play “Guess what he was on?” Cubsfan can have PCP, which is a solid guess. I’m going with bathsalts. That would explain a lot. Probably the safest bet would just be alcohol and marijuana. He was stealing cigars, after all. I only know two uses for cigars. One involves drinking and one involves marijuana. I’ve never known someone who would even smoke a cigar without a drink in the other hand. I can’t imagine stealing cigars would be any different. Forgot about Clinton. Three uses. But I’m betting that wasn’t the case here. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354.md?page=57) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354.md?page=59)