# Ferguson, MO **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 12, 2014, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354 "2014-08-12T04:51:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 59
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1161 "2014-08-18T15:07:18Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Agreed. > > Having come to consensus, I am off to loot a liquor store. Anything I can bring back for you? > > Regards, > Shodan Kinda early for looting, isn’t it? But yeah, grab me The Macallan and some Beef Jerky. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1162 "2014-08-18T15:08:01Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > I’ve never known someone who would even smoke a cigar without a drink in the other hand. I can’t imagine stealing cigars would be any different. I’ve never stolen a cigar in my life. But I’ve smoked plenty of cigars without a drink. Just as another data point. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1163 "2014-08-18T15:09:17Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > Weren’t you the one just complaining about low grade morons? > > I’ll use small words: That would make me sad to read about. It would be much gooder to read about police work that doesn’t cause people -even doers of theft- to be dead afterwards. I am guessing you are not widely applauded for your lively sense of fun. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1164 "2014-08-18T15:10:18Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > The issue is whether the shooting was justified. And as more and more evidence keeps turning up, it looks like it was. I agree with your first sentence, and of course with the unquoted criticism of “shoot the leg,” a staple of people whose firearms education comes from Hollywood. But I don’t see that your second sentence is anything but premature. What evidence contradicts the claims that Brown was surrendering – that his hands were up? ---
**Author:** ![BubbaDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bubbadog/32/333_2.png) [@BubbaDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BubbaDog)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1165 "2014-08-18T15:13:18Z")
> [@kinoons](#): > > The you only shoot to kill narrative is getting old. The truth has a way of hanging around. > [@](#): > > Let’s all be adults about this please. The use of a firearm in a defensive fashion is to convince the attacker to stop what they’re doing because getting shot hurts or to make them physically incapable of doing so. When you find a firearms training procedure that supports this please, please enlighten us. > [@](#): > > In either case getting shot does have the nasty side effect of potential death, and as such should not be used lightly. Lightly? As assuming it won’t kill? > [@](#): > > It is very fair to ask why the officer chose to shoot his perceived attacker and why he chose to not use a taser or other physical restraint/compliant device. No argument from me on that one. I’m assuming the justice system will cover that. > [@](#): > > To say that the officer intended to kill simply because he used his firearm is disingenuous at best. Actually, I’m quite amazed that anyone who is able to distinguish Hollywood from real life WOULDN’T come to that conclusion. > [@](#): > > If it turns out that the officer used his firearm in an offensive fashion then the narrative completely changes and he should go to jail for murder. We could all wait until the investigation is complete and then make informed decisions. Yup > [@](#): > > And, just to add some facts to the discussion: > > As noted by the CDC in 2001 the vast majority of non self inflicted gunshot wounds were not fatal. > [Surveillance for Fatal and Nonfatal Firearm-Related Injuries --- United States, 1993--1998](http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5002a1.htm?mobile=nocontent) Saying that lethal force often fails does not support the notion that using lethal force is a good idea for non-lethal objectives. ---
**Author:** ![Bruce\_Wayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bruce\_Wayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bruce_Wayne)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1166 "2014-08-18T15:16:56Z")
> **[Femoral artery](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Femoral_artery)** > > The femoral artery is a large artery in the thigh and the main arterial supply to the thigh and leg. The femoral artery gives off the deep femoral artery and descends along the anteromedial part of the thigh in the femoral triangle. It enters and passes through the adductor canal, and becomes the popliteal artery as it passes through the adductor hiatus in the adductor magnus near the junction of the middle and distal thirds of the thigh. > The femoral artery proximal to the origin of the deep ... Obligatory Wikipedia link to the femoral artery in case “shoot them in the leg” nonsense goes any further. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1167 "2014-08-18T15:19:58Z")
> [@Cubsfan](#): > > Shoot him in the leg? You think this is a video game where you keep shooting limbs until the baddie stops advancing? This is real life where dudes on PCP take 20 shots to the chest and keep on coming. > > You’re a clown. He’s the clown? When you’re the one making ridiculous statements like “this is real life where dudes on PCP take 20 shots to the chest and keep on coming”? Srsly? ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1168 "2014-08-18T15:27:41Z")
> [@Bruce\_Wayne](#): > > [Femoral artery - Wikipedia](http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Femoral_artery) > > Obligatory Wikipedia link to the femoral artery in case “shoot them in the leg” nonsense goes any further. Shooting someone’s ball-cap off their head gets their attention and is risk free. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1169 "2014-08-18T15:33:37Z")
> [@kinoons](#): > > …We could all wait until the investigation is complete and then make informed decisions. Where’s the fun in that? ---
**Author:** ![GrandWino](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grandwino/32/67_2.png) [@GrandWino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrandWino)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1170 "2014-08-18T15:51:25Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > Shooting someone’s ball-cap off their head gets their attention and is risk free. Even more fun to shoot at their feet and make them dance a little first, Yosimite Sam style. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1171 "2014-08-18T16:03:11Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > I think we’re in agreement. The cop meant to kill him. I say he didn’t need to do it. There are other ways to deal with unarmed belligerent men. No pepper spray, mace, or taser in the car? Unarmed but 6-4 300 (at least) lbs. So what do you grab? No all cops have tasers and they are not designed to shoot at a moving target. You only get one shot. Is that what you use? You can run and fight through pepper spray. In fact that is part of the training to use it. Get sprayed then run through a gauntlet of attackers with pads. Anyone can do it with sufficient motivation or adrenaline. Or maybe you want to wrestle this giant who just beat you and tried to take your gun? Go ahead, decide. You have half a second. I’ll wait. > [@elucidator](#): > > We are somewhat concerned that there be sufficient reason for killing someone. So, yeah, actually. I’ll say up front that this is going to seem like a gotcha. I assure you it’s not. I want to know your opinion on this possible scenario. I think you are able to look at things logically and put emotion aside. I believe this is likely to be close to the scenario the officer is going to say happened: The officer sees two males walking in the middle of the road blocking traffic. He yells at them to get off the road. There is a verbal confrontation with one of them which turns physical. The male subject overpowers the officer due to his much bigger size and strength. The during the struggle the officer is hit in the face and he tries to draw his weapon and both fight over it. A shot goes off while both are partially in the patrol car. The male subject disengages. The officer orders the male subject to stop and surrender. The male turns and charges the officer. The officer just having gone through a struggle for his weapon with the belief that he will lose another struggle due to the disparity of their size shoots until the subject stops coming at him. In that case do you believe the officer was justified in shooting? I’m not saying this is what happened. As far as I know the above scenario has not been disproven by any available evidence but it is far from being established as fact. I just want to know that if a scenario like that did happen do you think it would be justified? If not what do you think should have been done? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1172 "2014-08-18T16:15:11Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > …The issue is not whether he meant to kill or not. The issue is whether the shooting was justified. And as more and more evidence keeps turning up, it looks like it was. The structure of your sentence…“more and more evidence”…implies that a huge amount of clear evidence has surfaced. But all we have new and different is the autopsy report. The good news…if that is the appropriate phrasing…is that Brown was not shot in the back. And that is good because of the likelihood that if it showed that he were, the situation would get a lot worse. But did he try? When did he open fire? Brown was fleeing, or wasn’t he? Were any warnings given? Did the officer call for back up? If not, why not? How far away was the officer when he first opened fire? Was his line of fire clear of any civilians? And what do we mean when we say “justified”? He was a felon, suspected of strongarmed robbery, which is just as bad as armed robbery, only not armed? He was a suspect, so, same thing? Did he raise his arms, trying to surrender? Before or after he was shot several times in one of them? If he had already been shot several times, why was the last shot even fired? The last shot went into the top of his head, which means he was most likely falling forward, or charging for a lethal head butt. What made that last shot necessary? The venomous worm at the heart of this cannot be answered, but anyone of conscience must be asking it: if Brown were white, would he be dead? But you are clearly right on one point, there is no issue as to whether he meant to kill or not, definitely he did. So, that’s one for you. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1173 "2014-08-18T16:15:41Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > The officer sees two males walking in the middle of the road blocking traffic. He yells at them to get off the road. There is a verbal confrontation with one of them which turns physical. Gonna have to be more specific about how that happens. Who approaches whom, and in what way? > [@](#): > > The male subject overpowers the officer due to his much bigger size and strength. Despite the officer being in a car? Again, how does that happen? > [@](#): > > A shot goes off All by itself? Six times? Hitting the subject every time? ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1174 "2014-08-18T16:19:22Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I am guessing you are not widely applauded for your lively sense of fun. There are posters known for their wit and the humorous _bon mot_ they bring to the occasional thread. None of those posters are you or me. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1175 "2014-08-18T16:23:42Z")
The _only_ reason to shoot a firearm at a living being is if you intend to kill it. No exceptions, no ifs ands or buts. There’s no “shoot him in the leg to slow him down”, there’s no “warning shot”. That’s not how it works in real life. The time you spend firing a shot to scare your target is the time it takes him to draw the gun you didn’t know he had and shoot you in the face. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1176 "2014-08-18T16:25:10Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Gonna have to be more specific about how that happens. Who approaches whom, and in what way? > > Despite the officer being in a car? Again, how does that happen? > > All by itself? Six times? Hitting the subject every time? 1. Why does that matter? 2. The initial reports had the officer being pushed back into the car with a fight happening there. So that is why I chose it for this scenario. 3. Reports stated that one shot happened in the car and no one was hit. I’m not sure if that has been corroborated. In this scenario one shot goes off in the car with no one hit. The other shots happened when the officer was being charged. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1177 "2014-08-18T16:30:29Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > 1. Why does that matter? Because it tells us who is the aggressor. > [@](#): > > 1. The initial reports had the officer being pushed back into the car with a fight happening there. So that is why I chose it for this scenario. OK, but you know about initial reports, especially given who they come from in this case. > [@](#): > > In this scenario one shot goes off in the car with no one hit. The other shots happened when the officer was being charged. If you’re going to assume who is the aggressor, then you’re assuming the conclusion too. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1178 "2014-08-18T16:31:43Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I am guessing you are not widely applauded for your lively sense of fun. > > Regards, > Shodan Not as much as _you_ are, Mr. Sunshine. ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1179 "2014-08-18T16:34:09Z")
About the 4 arm wounds: They are consistent with the hands being raised in surrender, or held in a defensive position in front of the head. Either that, or they could be the shots that were fired from the rear (this is according to the presser this morning). ---
**Author:** ![Sinaptics](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Sinaptics](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaptics)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1180 "2014-08-18T16:37:55Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > Unarmed but 6-4 300 (at least) lbs. So what do you grab? No all cops have tasers and they are not designed to shoot at a moving target. You only get one shot. Is that what you use? You can run and fight through pepper spray. In fact that is part of the training to use it. Get sprayed then run through a gauntlet of attackers with pads. Anyone can do it with sufficient motivation or adrenaline. Or maybe you want to wrestle this giant who just beat you and tried to take your gun? Go ahead, decide. You have half a second. I’ll wait. > > I’ll say up front that this is going to seem like a gotcha. I assure you it’s not. I want to know your opinion on this possible scenario. I think you are able to look at things logically and put emotion aside. > > I believe this is likely to be close to the scenario the officer is going to say happened: > > The officer sees two males walking in the middle of the road blocking traffic. He yells at them to get off the road. There is a verbal confrontation with one of them which turns physical. The male subject overpowers the officer due to his much bigger size and strength. The during the struggle the officer is hit in the face and he tries to draw his weapon and both fight over it. A shot goes off while both are partially in the patrol car. The male subject disengages. The officer orders the male subject to stop and surrender. The male turns and charges the officer. The officer just having gone through a struggle for his weapon with the belief that he will lose another struggle due to the disparity of their size shoots until the subject stops coming at him. > > In that case do you believe the officer was justified in shooting? I’m not saying this is what happened. As far as I know the above scenario has not been disproven by any available evidence but it is far from being established as fact. I just want to know that if a scenario like that did happen do you think it would be justified? If not what do you think should have been done? In my opinion, this is the only real set of circumstances that could exonerate the officer. Or in other words, it’s the only way I think the situation could play out in which the officer was in fear of his life or the life of others, given the information we have at present. I think it’s apparent that people are aware of the possibility or we’d be seeing a lot more unrest and suggestions to lynch the officer. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354.md?page=58) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354.md?page=60)