# Ferguson, MO **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 12, 2014, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354 "2014-08-12T04:51:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![BubbaDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bubbadog/32/333_2.png) [@BubbaDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BubbaDog)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/101 "2014-08-13T16:31:51Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > How about …let’s wait for the facts to emerge about the shooting, before judging? Is there a term for the opposite of threadshitting? ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/102 "2014-08-13T16:32:56Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > It’s just sad that you think it is an expression of self-righteousness to say that the vast majority of humans do not wish for kids “like the looters” to be executed in the streets. > > (Most of us don’t think even the looters _themselves_ should be murdered, much less some ill-defined category of their type, though I appreciate that there are those who think nothing of shooting a boy in the face if he tries to steal a TV from your store.) > > That’s not me being on a high horse. It’s me being an utterly ordinary, sinful human who just happens to lack the severe racial resentment issues or whatever that cause a person to think like this. I think a lot depends on what words you use, and people tend to use them interchangeably. If the question is whether such people deserve to be executed, or should be murdered or things like that, or if they wish for it, then I think the vast majority would agree with you. But if the question is: “how big of a tragedy is it if some thug gets killed in the course of committing a crime?”, then I think most people would think it’s not a big deal. And I suspect most of the people here think the same thing in most circumstances. You see all sorts of Darwin Awards type threads in which people chortle at the death of all sorts of people, many of whom did nothing wrong other than being stupid, and all the more so if they did. That’s how I look at it anyway. As a matter of public policy I would certainly be opposed to executing people for looting or robbery etc. And I certainly agree that there needs to be tight control over and scrutiny of the police because they have guns and enforcement powers (plus, IME, a lot of cops are power-drunk punks). But if I hear that some guy committing a burglary got shot in the course of the crime I don’t sit around worrying about the fact that burglary is not a capital crime. One fewer burglar, the world will survive. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/103 "2014-08-13T16:37:51Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Also, I take back what I said about magellan. He clearly does think the rioters are biggest miscarriage of justice. How is it not? The officer was doing his duty to the community by using force against what he believed to be a threat, and he is entitled both to presumption of innocence and the benefit of a doubt. People taking advantage of the situation to rob and destroy have no such benefit and should be treated like the threat to society that they are. ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/104 "2014-08-13T16:44:14Z")
I really don’t follow the logic in using the rioting and looting as a reason to disbelieve that Brown was killed unjustly. 1. Unarmed teenager shot by a police officer - facts re: events leading up to the shooting are unknown or in doubt 2. People affiliated with the shooter, related to the shooter, or otherwise compelled by the shooting hold a peaceful vigil and protest event 3. Other people, not apparently affiliated with the shooter other than by race, commit crimes including rioting, looting, arson, and assault 4. Somehow the fact that the people committing the crimes in step (3) are the same race and have some of the same anger as the people in step (2) means that the event in step (1) is more likely a justified shooting I really need some help with the last step in this chain that goes beyond “black people rioted so the black person they rioted in response to probably had it coming”. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/105 "2014-08-13T16:47:31Z")
> [@BubbaDog](#): > > Is there a term for the opposite of threadshitting? I’d really rather not contemplate what the opposite of shitting would entail. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/106 "2014-08-13T17:13:47Z")
_South Park_ did it. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/107 "2014-08-13T18:10:51Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > That’s how I look at it anyway. As a matter of public policy I would certainly be opposed to executing people for looting or robbery etc. And I certainly agree that there needs to be tight control over and scrutiny of the police because they have guns and enforcement powers (plus, IME, a lot of cops are power-drunk punks). But if I hear that some guy committing a burglary got shot in the course of the crime I don’t sit around worrying about the fact that burglary is not a capital crime. One fewer burglar, the world will survive. [California law](http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/197.html) at least, specifies that homicide may be justifiable: > [@](#): > > When necessarily committed in attempting, by lawful ways and > means, to apprehend any person for any felony committed, or in > lawfully suppressing any riot, or in lawfully keeping and preserving > the peace. Here are the [jury instructions](http://www.courts.ca.gov/partners/documents/calcrim_juryins.pdf)related to such events: > [@](#): > > 1. Justifiable Homicide: Non-Peace Officer Preserving the > Peace > The defendant is not guilty of (murder/ [or] manslaughter/ attempted > murder/ [or] attempted voluntary manslaughter) if (he/she) > (killed/attempted to kill) someone while preserving the peace. Such (a/ > an) [attempted] killing is justified, and therefore not unlawful, if: > 2. The defendant committed the [attempted] killing while lawfully > (suppressing a riot/keeping and preserving the peace); > 3. The defendant had probable cause to believe that > \ posed a threat of serious physical > harm, either to the defendant or someone else; > AND > 4. The [attempted] killing was necessary to lawfully (suppress a > riot/keep and preserve the peace). > A person has probable cause to believe that someone poses a threat of > serious physical harm when facts known to the person would persuade > someone of reasonable caution that the other person is going to cause > serious physical harm to another. > [A riot occurs when two or more people, acting together and without > legal authority, disturb the public peace by use of force or violence or > by threat to use force or violence with the immediate ability to carry > out those threats.] > [A disturbance of the public peace may happen in any place of > confinement. \ is a place of > confinement.] > The People have the burden of proving beyond a reasonable doubt that > the [attempted] killing was not justified. If the People have not met this > burden, you must find the defendant not guilty of [attempted] (murder/ > [or] manslaughter). So yeah, as a matter of public policy (in CA) it is permissible to use deadly force to suppress a riot and looting. ---
**Author:** ![Sterling\_Archer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Sterling\_Archer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sterling_Archer)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/108 "2014-08-13T18:48:40Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > There is that “someone” thing. > > Would YOU loot and set fire to stores “out of anger”? No, I wouldn’t. But I can understand that someone ELSE might do it. It doesn’t make it justified, or right. But I can sympathize with the underlying emotion. I can understand revenge killing, but I wouldn’t do it, nor does it make it justified. You seem to think “understandable” means “approved given the circumstances”, but that is not at all what it means. It means, “I can understand why someone would make that choice.” It does not pass any moral judgment over the choice. (You really need to see Chris Rock’s routine about O.J. – “I’m not sayin’ he shoulda killed her, but I understand.”) ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/109 "2014-08-13T18:48:51Z")
The friend that was with Michael Brown when he was shot has now given his rendition of the events that led to Brown’s shooting > **[Witness says teen friend shot by cop 'like an animal'](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/08/13/ferguson-protests-continue/13989945/)** > > Dorian Johnson gave his account to police and FBI on Wednesday. > [@Dorian Johnson](#): > > Johnson said the incident started around 1:40 p.m. Saturday when the officer pulled up beside the pair as they were walking down the street near his grandmother’s house. > > “He didn’t say freeze, halt or anything like we were committing a crime,” Johnson told KSDK. “He said, ‘Get the ‘F’ on the sidewalk.’” > > He said the officer, whose name has not been released, shoved open the car door, grabbed Brown around the neck and tried to pull him through the window. > > “The second time he says, ‘I’ll shoot.’ A second later the gun went off and he let go,” Johnson said. “That’s how we were able to run at the same time.” > > Johnson said he ducked behind a car as the officer continued shooting at them, hitting Brown in the back. > > “His (Brown’s) hands immediately went into the air and he turned around to the officer,” Johnson recalled. “My friend started to tell the officer that he was unarmed and that he could stop shooting (him). Before he could get his second sentence out, the officer fired several more shots into his head and chest area. He fell dramatically into the fatal position. I did not hear once he yell freeze, stop or halt. it was just horrible to watch.” The friend’s credibility about what happened isn’t the greatest. His reference that Brown was about to say he was unarmed and to stop shooting doesn’t hold up. Brown died, no one knows what he was going to say if anything. It will be interesting to hear the police officer’s account of the events. I can’t imagine what he could say to justify his actions. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/110 "2014-08-13T19:05:30Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > I think the issue is that it seems . . .bizarre . . . to get all het up about property crimes when there is this much more horrid miscarriage of justice. It’s like some guy loses his kids to a crazed axe murderer, and in following weeks he snaps and hits his wife. And nothing makes hitting your wife cool, or acceptable, or justified, but considering the horrific circumstances around it, it seems weird to focus on that action as the most relevant, the most historic, part of the whole incident. Fixating on those damn looters and how horrible and counter productive they are and acting like that’s anything but a detail in the major event of “cops shoot unarmed kid to death” is problematic. > > I think it suggests a couple motivations: > [ul] > [li]I only really care about crime that happens to me. As a white, middle-class citizen, Neither myself nor my loved ones are are ever going to be shot by the cops for no reason, so while I think it’s sad and wrong, it doesn’t upset me the way looters do, because I and people I love could plausibly be the victims in these crimes.[/li] > [li]I identify with the white cop in my mental picture. I need a narrative that justifies the actions, so I find comfort in the idea that the whole community was seething with violence, just looking for an excuse. If that’s true, the cop being on a hair-trigger is understandable, even wise, and his actions–even if they were a mistake in hindsight–were human and he’s not evil.[/li][/ul] > > In both cases, the issue is rooted in identity–feeling like the main character in the story is the cop, not the kid. I don’t know that that’s “racism”, but I think it’s something in one’s internal world map that needs to be considered. We don’t yet know if there has been a horrid miscarriage of justice or not. It is too early to tell, and it depends on circumstances. There are several possibilities. 1. The facts emerge that the shooting was justified. In that case, no miscarriage of justice. 2. The facts emerge that the shooting was unjustified - perhaps the cop was a racist. The authotiries investigate, he is charged and found guilty of murder, and is sent to jail. A terrible crime was committed, true, but no miscarriage of justice. 3. The facts emerge that the shooting was unjustified but the authorities sweep it under the rug; the murderous, racist cop gets some kind of slap on the wrist and is out gunning for more unarmed kids in next to no time. A terrible miscarriage of justice. Only in the third case has a “miscarriage of justice” happened - and, importantly, it is far too early to tell if scenario 3 will happen or not. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/111 "2014-08-13T19:08:26Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > [California law](http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/197.html) at least, specifies that homicide may be justifiable: > Here are the [jury instructions](http://www.courts.ca.gov/partners/documents/calcrim_juryins.pdf)related to such events: > So yeah, as a matter of public policy (in CA) it is permissible to use deadly force to suppress a riot and looting. For rioting perhaps (depending on the degree of violence) but not for looting. The source you quote clearly specifies that the perpetrator must “pose a threat of serious physical harm” So shooting someone for breaking a window and walking off with a TV is not justified, nor probably would be shooting someone lighting an (unoccupied) car on fire. However it would be justifiable if they were beatings someone up with a baseball bat. ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/112 "2014-08-13T19:12:38Z")
> [@DWMarch](#): > > It’s more a statement of Fuck Tha Police than it is a quest for justice. No, it’s more of a statement of “Fuck my neighbor down the street and his livelyhood because I’m going to steal these tvs and break his windows because I want free shit and this tragedy is the perfect excuse because if I get caught I’ll just say I was upset at the police.” > [@septimus](#): > > Leave it to the right-wing racist assholes to make the story about the looters, not about the innocent unarmed teenager shot dead by police. Leave it to the left-wing racist asshole to excuse bad behaviur by a minority when it’s pointed out by a right-winger. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/113 "2014-08-13T19:29:44Z")
> [@Sterling\_Archer](#): > > No, I wouldn’t. But I can understand that someone ELSE might do it. It doesn’t make it justified, or right. But I can sympathize with the underlying emotion. > > I can understand revenge killing, but I wouldn’t do it, nor does it make it justified. > > You seem to think “understandable” means “approved given the circumstances”, but that is not at all what it means. It means, “I can understand why someone would make that choice.” It does not pass any moral judgment over the choice. You can understand why someone ELSE would do it. You wouldn’t do it. Ever. But someone else - obviously a lesser human being, you understand why he would do it. As I said, if you “understand” why someone would do it and say that it is possible you would do it too, then you’re justifying it. If you “understand” why someone would do it, but wouldn’t ever do it yourself, then you’re stating that that someone is a lesser human than you, that’s why it is “understandable” why he would do it. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/114 "2014-08-13T19:37:30Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > The friend that was with Michael Brown when he was shot has now given his rendition of the events that led to Brown’s shooting > > [Witness says teen friend shot by cop 'like an animal'](http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/08/13/ferguson-protests-continue/13989945/) > > The friend’s credibility about what happened isn’t the greatest. His reference that Brown was about to say he was unarmed and to stop shooting doesn’t hold up. Brown died, no one knows what he was going to say if anything. > > It will be interesting to hear the police officer’s account of the events. I can’t imagine what he could say to justify his actions. It doesn’t sound like the friend is saying what Brown planned to say. More that he was in the process of saying it but hadn’t finished. I would think one core question here will be the coroner’s report and the forensic evidence. If it establishes that Brown was shot in the back and/or from a distance, then it would be very bad for the cop. But if it was in the front or side and at close range, then not only would it bolster the claim of a struggle for the gun, but it would also impeach the witness testimony. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/115 "2014-08-13T20:17:36Z")
Do cops in Missouri normally make a habit of pulling up to pedestrians and shooting them for no reason? 'Cause the friend’s story doesn’t make a lot of sense to me, and our nation’s prisons are FULL of people whose friends will swear that they didn’t do anything wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/116 "2014-08-13T20:50:39Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > You can understand why someone ELSE would do it. You wouldn’t do it. Ever. But someone else - obviously a lesser human being, you understand why he would do it. “a lesser human being”??? 😕 What the fuck does that mean? > [@Terr](#): > > As I said, if you “understand” why someone would do it and say that it is possible you would do it too, then you’re justifying it. If you “understand” why someone would do it, but wouldn’t ever do it yourself, then you’re stating that that someone is a lesser human than you, that’s why it is “understandable” why he would do it. Your “rules” or whatever they are in that last couple of sentences are ridiculous and do not reflect anyone’s lifestyle, reasoning or viewpoints other than your own. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/117 "2014-08-13T21:03:46Z")
In capitalist America, bank rob _you_! ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/118 "2014-08-13T21:05:11Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > You can understand why someone ELSE would do it. You wouldn’t do it. Ever. But someone else - obviously a lesser human being, you understand why he would do it. > > As I said, if you “understand” why someone would do it and say that it is possible you would do it too, then you’re justifying it. If you “understand” why someone would do it, but wouldn’t ever do it yourself, then you’re stating that that someone is a lesser human than you, that’s why it is “understandable” why he would do it. This board has seen a lot of really lame “gotcha” aficionados over the years, but never one quite as incompetent at it as you are. I’m embarrassed for you. ---
**Author:** ![Sterling\_Archer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Sterling\_Archer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sterling_Archer)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/119 "2014-08-13T21:05:22Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > You can understand why someone ELSE would do it. You wouldn’t do it. Ever. But someone else - obviously a lesser human being, you understand why he would do it. > > As I said, if you “understand” why someone would do it and say that it is possible you would do it too, then you’re justifying it. If you “understand” why someone would do it, but wouldn’t ever do it yourself, then you’re stating that that someone is a lesser human than you, that’s why it is “understandable” why he would do it. No, I didn’t say anyone is a lesser human being. Don’t put words in my mouth. People make different choices, that’s all. I wouldn’t make that choice. Why do you think everything requires a moral judgment? It seems impossible to talk to you without you adding a judging veneer to everything. There’s probably a few situations where I would make the wrong choice, but a rioter would make a better one. There’s no greater/lesser here. Just different. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/120 "2014-08-13T21:22:59Z")
> [@Sterling\_Archer](#): > > No, I didn’t say anyone is a lesser human being. Don’t put words in my mouth. People make different choices, that’s all. I wouldn’t make that choice. > > Why do you think everything requires a moral judgment? Can you explain, why wouldn’t you loot and burn stores? Is it a “moral judgment”? Or are you just lazy? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354.md?page=7)