# Ferguson, MO **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 12, 2014, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354 "2014-08-12T04:51:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 60
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1181 "2014-08-18T16:39:40Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Because it tells us who is the aggressor. > > OK, but you know about initial reports, especially given who they come from in this case. > > If you’re going to assume who is the aggressor, then you’re assuming the conclusion too. 1. Aggressor in what way? By talking to someone? By telling them to get out of the road? Is that not allowed? 2. Yes. In this case from the police and eyewitnesses. Some eyewitness testimony has been easily disproven already. So far this had not. But again I am not saying this is what happened in Ferguson. This is a hypothetical based on elements from Ferguson. 3. You miss the point. I’m trying to find out if some people think there is no way that a shooting involving an unarmed man can be justified. In my scenario the male subject is the aggressor because I’m telling you he is. Is the cop justified in shooting him? It could have happened in ferguson much differently. ---
**Author:** ![Sinaptics](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Sinaptics](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaptics)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1182 "2014-08-18T16:45:58Z")
Honest question: Given that no gunpowder residue was found on Brown’s body (especially his hands), what is the likelihood that his hands were in the vehicle when the gun supposedly discharged? How far does the residue travel? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1183 "2014-08-18T16:47:45Z")
For that matter, where the heck did the bullet go? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1184 "2014-08-18T16:49:23Z")
> [@camille](#): > > About the 4 arm wounds: They are consistent with the hands being raised in surrender, or held in a defensive position in front of the head. Either that, or they could be the shots that were fired from the rear (this is according to the presser this morning). [This diagram](http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/18/us/michael-brown-autopsy-shows-he-was-shot-at-least-6-times.html) doesn’t really seem to agree with that conclusion. The four arm wounds could not have been delivered either from the back or at arms placed in a defensive position in front of the head. They could have been delivered to a person whose hands were raised in surrender, since that would have the palms exposed and facing the shooter. So as I see it: surrender posture, possible yes. Defensive position, no, and shot from behind, no. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1185 "2014-08-18T16:49:31Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > There are posters known for their wit and the humorous _bon mot_ they bring to the occasional thread. None of those posters are you or me. Well, none of them are you… Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1186 "2014-08-18T16:50:38Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > 1. Aggressor in what way? Physically, of course. Who went after whom? > [@](#): > > By talking to someone? By telling them to get out of the road? Is that not allowed? Jaywalking While Black is not a capital crime. > [@](#): > > I’m trying to find out if some people think there is no way that a shooting involving an unarmed man can be justified. It is possible to assume circumstances in which that is the case. The resemblance of those circumstances to the reality of this case is an open question, though. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1187 "2014-08-18T16:50:53Z")
> [@camille](#): > > About the 4 arm wounds: They are consistent with the hands being raised in surrender, or held in a defensive position in front of the head. Either that, or they could be the shots that were fired from the rear (this is according to the presser this morning). Maybe you watched a different autopsy report than I did? Brown was supposed to have been shot at least six times. Only one shot to the wrist might have come from behind but, as the doctor suggested, the arm is a very movable appendage. The arm could have been raised in the air or positioned in front of the face or body. Not necessarily from behind. The fatal shot to the top of the skull could have been administered while Brown had his head tilted down or while he was falling forward. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1188 "2014-08-18T16:53:52Z")
> [@Sinaptics](#): > > Honest question: Given that no gunpowder residue was found on Brown’s body (especially his hands), what is the likelihood that his hands were in the vehicle when the gun supposedly discharged? How far does the residue travel? The examiner did not have access to Brown’s clothing, but they would likely not have covered his hands, you’re right. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1189 "2014-08-18T16:57:49Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Physically, of course. Who went after whom? > > Jaywalking While Black is not a capital crime. > > It is possible to assume circumstances in which that is the case. The resemblance of those circumstances to the reality of this case is an open question, though. It’s been reported that Brown had the stolen cigars in his possession when he was shot. Brown would-a/should-a assumed that he was about to be arrested for beating up a store clerk and stealing cigars. It’s unclear if Brown was attempting to avoid arrest for his crime. The witness to the shooting was also involved in the theft. How convincing will that witness be when he has to testify, under oath, in court? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1190 "2014-08-18T16:58:10Z")
> [@Sinaptics](#): > > Honest question: Given that no gunpowder residue was found on Brown’s body (especially his hands), what is the likelihood that his hands were in the vehicle when the gun supposedly discharged? How far does the residue travel? At an absolute maximum, 3-5 feet – and the residue at that distance is tiny. At 1 1/2 - 2 feet, there is easily testable residue, although often not visible to the naked eye. And at 1 foot or less, there is typically heavy, visible residue. Please note that such residue is caught by clothes, so even a very close shot won’t leave residue on flesh if the shot passed through fabric as well. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1191 "2014-08-18T16:59:04Z")
What I’m a bit curious about is the impetus for all these autopsies. I’m sure distrust is a big part of it, but I wonder if there’s also something of an “expert witness” aspect to it, in which the ones hiring the expert are trying to get the opinion most favorable to their position. > [@Bricker](#): > > [This diagram](http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/18/us/michael-brown-autopsy-shows-he-was-shot-at-least-6-times.html) doesn’t really seem to agree with that conclusion. The four arm wounds could not have been delivered either from the back or at arms placed in a defensive position in front of the head. They could have been delivered to a person whose hands were raised in surrender, since that would have the palms exposed and facing the shooter. > > So as I see it: surrender posture, possible yes. Defensive position, no, and shot from behind, no. ISTM that it’s likelier that his arms were not in a surrender posture. Because that would mean his arms were above his head. If so, either the officer decided for whatever reason to aim for his arms and had incredible aim, or aimed at his body and happened to repeatedly hit his upraised arm instead. More likely that his arms were in front of his body, and thus the cop, aiming at the body, hit the arms instead. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1192 "2014-08-18T16:59:36Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > It’s been reported that Brown had the stolen cigars in his possession when he was shot. It’s also been reported, by the FPD itself, that Officer Wilson did not know that. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1193 "2014-08-18T17:02:01Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Physically, of course. Who went after whom? > > Jaywalking While Black is not a capital crime. > > It is possible to assume circumstances in which that is the case. The resemblance of those circumstances to the reality of this case is an open question, though. 1. In my scenario the cop grabbed the male subjects arm first. And? 2. When you find a case like that let me know. 3. Thank you. See, no gotcha. I think some are under the assumption that there can be no circumstances in which a cop is justified. This will not be used against you later. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1194 "2014-08-18T17:03:25Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > It’s also been reported, by the FPD itself, that Officer Wilson did not know that. Brown did know that he had stolen cigars in his possession and I believe that would have affected his response to the police officers commands. YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1195 "2014-08-18T17:05:54Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > It’s also been reported, by the FPD itself, that Officer Wilson did not know that. Wrong. It was explicitly reported, by the FPD itself, that Officer Wilson did know that at the time of the shooting. Not at the time of the initial stop. But after the stop the officer saw the cigars and suspected Brown of the robbery. > **[DAY SIX, DAY: The Rev. Jesse Jackson shows up at protest site as Brown family...](https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-courts/michael-brown-a-suspect-in-robbery-of-cigars-from-store/article_52c40b84-ad90-5f9a-973c-70d628d0be04.html)** > > Surveillance video, reports about robbery were released Friday morning along with name of officer who shot Brown. Ferguson officer realized during encounter that Michael Brown might be suspect in robbery, chief says Jackson said the officer was aware cigars had been taken in the robbery of a store nearby, but did not know when he encountered Brown and Dorian Johnson that they might be suspects. He stopped them because they were walking in the street, Jackson said. But Jackson told the Post-Dispatch that the officer, Darren Wilson, saw cigars in Brown’s hand and realized he might be the robber. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1196 "2014-08-18T17:07:14Z")
Yes, it would have made him more likely to \*avoid \*confrontation, hmm? > [@Loach](#): > > 1. In my scenario the cop grabbed the male subjects arm first. And? How was he able to do that? Did he get out and go after the “subject”, or did the subject come to him? It does matter who the aggressor is, crucially, and it’s not clear why you’re evading the point. > [@](#): > > 1. When you find a case like that let me know. This whole thread has been about one. > [@](#): > > I think some are under the assumption that there can be no circumstances in which a cop is justified. If you see an example, do please point it out. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1197 "2014-08-18T17:07:26Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > It’s also been reported, by the FPD itself, that Officer Wilson did not know that. The Chief stated that he did not make the connection initially but realized it during the incident. > [@](#): > > Wilson noticed Brown was carrying a box of cigars that had been reported stolen. Wilson, he said, initially stopped Brown for blocking traffic, but as he began driving past Brown, he noticed Brown was holding cigars. > > At that point, Wilson “made the connection” that Brown might have been involved in a theft that had just been broadcast on police radio, Jackson said. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1198 "2014-08-18T17:08:13Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > It’s also been reported, by the FPD itself, that Officer Wilson did not know that. > [@](#): > > (Ferguson Police Chief) Jackson later told NBC News that while the officer who shot Brown initially stopped him for walking in the street and blocking traffic, “at some point” during the encounter the officer saw cigars in Brown’s hands and thought he might be a suspect in the robbery. [Cite.](http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/ferguson-police-name-michael-brown) Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1199 "2014-08-18T17:07:37Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > What I’m a bit curious about is the impetus for all these autopsies. I’m sure distrust is a big part of it, but I wonder if there’s also something of an “expert witness” aspect to it, in which the ones hiring the expert are trying to get the opinion most favorable to their position. Maybe. But Baden is pretty well-known, and has even waived his fee. It’s difficult for either side to paint this as someone who is selling a favorable opinion to a buyer. > [@](#): > > ISTM that it’s likelier that his arms were not in a surrender posture. Because that would mean his arms were above his head. If so, either the officer decided for whatever reason to aim for his arms and had incredible aim, or aimed at his body and happened to repeatedly hit his upraised arm instead. > > More likely that his arms were in front of his body, and thus the cop, aiming at the body, hit the arms instead. Not sure I agree. His hands could have been up, in the sense that they were roughly level with his head. That’s a more natural surrender posture than a “reach for the sky” pose of hands completely over ones head and arms fully extended. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1200 "2014-08-18T17:09:03Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Wrong. It was explicitly reported, by the FPD itself, that Officer Wilson did know that at the time of the shooting. Not easy to clean up your story when [the original](http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/15/us/missouri-teen-shooting/index.html)is already out, though. > [@](#): > > Ferguson Police Chief Thomas Jackson – hours after documents came out labeling the 18-year-old Brown as the “primary suspect” in the store theft – told reporters the “robbery does not relate to the initial contact between the officer and Michael Brown.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354.md?page=59) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354.md?page=61)