# Ferguson, MO **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 12, 2014, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354 "2014-08-12T04:51:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 61
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1201 "2014-08-18T17:09:30Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > For that matter, where the heck did the bullet go? Pathologist Michael Baden had not seen the original xrays taken before the autopsy and that information isn’t available yet. Three bullets have been recovered. The other three, or more, could still be in the body. It’s also not officially known how many shot were actually fired. ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1202 "2014-08-18T17:12:32Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > [This diagram](http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/18/us/michael-brown-autopsy-shows-he-was-shot-at-least-6-times.html) doesn’t really seem to agree with that conclusion. The four arm wounds could not have been delivered either from the back or at arms placed in a defensive position in front of the head. They could have been delivered to a person whose hands were raised in surrender, since that would have the palms exposed and facing the shooter. > > So as I see it: surrender posture, possible yes. Defensive position, no, and shot from behind, no. As I said, this was according to the pathologist at the press conference this morning: > **[Michael Brown autopsy results revealed; National Guard deployed](http://www.cbsnews.com/news/preliminary-autopsy-shows-michael-brown-shot-six-times/)** > > Private autopsy shows unarmed teen was shot multiple times; Missouri Gov. Jay Nixon adopts new tactic to keep the peace > [@](#): > > Parcells says a graze wound on Brown’s right arm could have occurred in several ways. He says the teen may have had his back to the shooter, or he could have been facing the shooter with his hands above his head or in a defensive position. ---
**Author:** ![JSexton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/96bed5/32.png) [@JSexton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JSexton)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1203 "2014-08-18T17:17:50Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Not easy to clean up your story when [the original](http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/15/us/missouri-teen-shooting/index.html)is already out, though. The key word there is initial. His initial contact was for jaywalking. At some point after the initial contact, but before the shooting, Wilson says he saw the cigars and made the mental connection between the person he was confronting and the person described over the radio. It certainly helps explain the sudden escalation of the situation (while not in itself justifying the shooting). ---
**Author:** ![Sinaptics](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Sinaptics](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaptics)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1204 "2014-08-18T17:19:30Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > At an absolute maximum, 3-5 feet – and the residue at that distance is tiny. > > At 1 1/2 - 2 feet, there is easily testable residue, although often not visible to the naked eye. > > And at 1 foot or less, there is typically heavy, visible residue. > > Please note that such residue is caught by clothes, so even a very close shot won’t leave residue on flesh if the shot passed through fabric as well. [From FBI.Gov](http://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/publications/law-enforcement-bulletin/may_2011/The%20Current%20Status%20of%20GSR%20Examinations): > [@](#): > > Tests show that people standing within 3 feet to the side of a shooter may have GSR on their hands, whereas those standing 10 or more feet in the same direction typically will not.6 This can vary with the type of gun and ammunition, number of shots fired, and the environment of the shooting. So, in an enclosed environment, like a vehicle, the chance seems likely that he should have residue on his person. Following this train of thought, I’ve been imaging in my mind that the officer and the teens were traveling towards each other so that the teens were next to the driver’s window of the patrol car. Does anyone know if that is, in fact, the case? Additionally, do we know what model gun was used by the officer? ---
**Author:** ![Cubsfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Cubsfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cubsfan)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1205 "2014-08-18T17:21:28Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > He’s the clown? When you’re the one making ridiculous statements like “this is real life where dudes on PCP take 20 shots to the chest and keep on coming”? Srsly? [http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/crime/officers-remember-pcp-fueled-shootout-in-college-park/2014/07/09/b30a9146-fb02-11e3-b1f4-8e77c632c07b\_story.html](http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/crime/officers-remember-pcp-fueled-shootout-in-college-park/2014/07/09/b30a9146-fb02-11e3-b1f4-8e77c632c07b_story.html) That’s just the first link that comes up in about a 2 second google search for PCP shooting. I don’t have time to collect the 100’s of stories over the years about PCP heads seeming superhuman in their ability to stay on the attack even when they are turned into swiss cheese, tased, or pepper sprayed (or all three). I guess you’ll hang your hat on the 20 shot hyperbole in my post now right? Ok you win…:rolleyes: > [@](#): > > "Swonger, the first officer to arrive at the scene, commanded McKoy to put the gun down. > > “He turned and pointed the gun at me,” Swonger said. “He started walking toward me.” > > Then the shots rang. McKoy fired at Swonger; Swonger fired back. > > As McKoy’s mother ran down the street, shots struck McKoy’s hip. But instead of going down, Swonger said, McKoy winced and kept firing, running onto nearby Baltimore Avenue. Swonger followed, taking cover behind a bridge to see what McKoy would do next. > > “Right when he got in the middle of Route 1, he spiked the gun like it was a football,” Swonger remembered. “It was the wildest thing I’d ever seen.” > > Swonger shot McKoy with a stun gun, but it appeared to have no affect. The officer tried to wrestle McKoy to the ground, but it was tough to get a grip on McKoy, who was sweaty, covered in blood, and unfazed by the injuries, Swonger said. When a second officer, Jimmy Simms, arrived on the scene, the pair still couldn’t subdue McKoy. > > “I’m on top of him and Simms is on top of him, and he pushed us both off with one hand while getting tazed,” Swonger said. “It was superhuman strength.” > > McKoy walked off. Dozens more officers arrived on the scene, hoping to quickly arrest McKoy, who was near University of Maryland. > > “You are so close to the campus,” Simms said. “You are painfully aware that failure to stop the threat could have meant that students and professors could have been victimized that night.” > > For a few minutes, Simms said, it seemed it would be impossible to stop McKoy. After officers thought McKoy pulled out had a second gun, police shot him several more times. Despite the bullet wounds, McKoy tried to steal two police cruisers, crashing one into the wall of a nearby fast-food restaurant. By the end of the night, McKoy had been shot multiple times, pepper sprayed and zapped by stun guns before he was finally subdued. > > “I’ve seen people on PCP and fought people on PCP,” Simms said. “But this, in my entire career, was the strongest suspect I’ve ever seen on PCP.”" ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1206 "2014-08-18T17:21:51Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Yes, it would have made him more likely to \*avoid \*confrontation, hmm? > > How was he able to do that? Did he get out and go after the “subject”, or did the subject come to him? It does matter who the aggressor is, crucially, and it’s not clear why you’re evading the point. > > This whole thread has been about one. > > If you see an example, do please point it out. You want a police force that avoids confrontation? That’s easy just come by the station to fill out a report. Hopefully the criminals will all turn themselves in. 1. Are you trying to establish a self defense motive? There was an initial verbal exchange about jaywalking. Then a physical contact happened when it was realized that there was a possible suspect of a crime. A police officer is allowed to detain suspects. If you deem him an aggressor because of that so be it. 2. No it’s not. Jaywalking may have gotten him noticed but it is dishonest to say in any way that he was killed for jaywalking. It’s just as valid to say he was killed for robbery since that probably changed how he would react to the police soon after. Or he was killed for eating Cheerios since that started the whole sequence. No, he was killed because of what happened in the minutes after he was first noticed. Whether or not it is justified has not been determined. 3. That’s why I asked the question. So far you are the only one to answer. But there have been the usual silly posts about shooting extremities and how tasers are used. Maybe someone else will answer. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1207 "2014-08-18T17:22:37Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Yes, it would have made him more likely to \*avoid \*confrontation, hmm? If he was trying to avoid confrontation with the police, he would not be walking down the middle of the road. People who are trying to avoid confrontations with the police do not make it impossible for the police to _not_ notice them committing a crime. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1208 "2014-08-18T17:28:09Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Not easy to clean up your story when [the original](http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/15/us/missouri-teen-shooting/index.html)is already out, though. Clean up, clarify: tomato tomahtoe. Either way all we have is a third party trying to relate what he heard. Probably through the filter of the investigating detectives since a Chief is not going to do the interviewing. Once we see what the officer said in his interview with the county and Feds then we will know what his actual story is. Which can be matched to the 911 and radio calls to prove when he was able to hear about the robbery. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1209 "2014-08-18T17:30:09Z")
> [@Sinaptics](#): > > …So, in an enclosed environment, like a vehicle, the chance seems likely that he should have residue on his person. (post shortened) You have to remember that this was the 2nd autopsy and Baden and the other examiner did not have access to everything in the 1st autopsy. The clothing had not been reexamined, the blood had been drained and replaced, the body may even have been washed (hopefully not). ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1210 "2014-08-18T17:30:34Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > The _only_ reason to shoot a firearm at a living being is if you intend to kill it. It? Wow. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1211 "2014-08-18T17:35:11Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > It? Wow. “Wow” what? Is “it” no longer an acceptable pronoun to refer to a generic living being? ---
**Author:** ![kinoons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/a698b9/32.png) [@kinoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kinoons)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1212 "2014-08-18T17:35:21Z")
> [@BubbaDog](#): > > When you find a firearms training procedure that supports this please, please enlighten us. > \ > Saying that lethal force often fails does not support the notion that using lethal force is a good idea for non-lethal objectives. Aside from my own personal experience related to the self defense pistol classes I’ve taken? I’ll admit its a limited number of classes (3) but each stressed the desire to make the attacker stop, not kill them. There is the philosophy from one firearms trainer stressing the “stopping power” of a handgun and not the “killing power”. This notion again supports the idea of using a firearm to stop a threat, not kill it. > **[Handgun Self-Defense](https://contemporaryfightingarts.com/handgun-self-defense/)** > > Handgun self defense is a controversial subject for many Americans. As a matter of fact, just ask a handful of people what they think about guns for self defense and you are bound to get an earful … You also have defensive trainer Gabe Surarez making the following statement: “Defenders will fire their weapons until the threat disappears. That means that until the role player falls down (simulating effective hits delivered), or runs away (removing the target), the good guy will keep firing. The concept of school solutions, controlled pairs, or otherwise artificially limiting the number of shots (as one does in a firing string on the range) does not hold up even in guys who’ve been extensively trained to do it.” [http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2010/07/robert-farago/how-many-bullets-do-you-need-in-your-home-defense-handgun/](http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2010/07/robert-farago/how-many-bullets-do-you-need-in-your-home-defense-handgun/) In addition you have an article from the American Rifleman stating the purpose of using your handgun is getting the attacker to stop before he injures you > **[An Official Journal Of The NRA | Self-Defense Pistol 101](https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/self-defense-pistol-101)** > > Using a handgun to defend your life requires more than just a familiarity with firearms. There is the US News report that shows if a defender uses a firearm they generally suffer fewer injuries. Does not address the desire to stop the action instead of kill the attacker, but greatly supports the notion that a firearm has a defensive use. [http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2013/06/25/study-using-guns-for-defense-leads-to-fewer-injuries](http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2013/06/25/study-using-guns-for-defense-leads-to-fewer-injuries) My link to the CDC report regarding the number of deaths vs the number of injuries of those shot is only intended to represent that firearms are not a magical death ray as some of the audience believes. So **bubbadog** , now it is your turn – please present some cite that states the sole purpose of a defensive handgun, and the training to use one, is to kill someone. > [@Smapti](#): > > The _only_ reason to shoot a firearm at a living being is if you intend to kill it. No exceptions, no ifs ands or buts. There’s no “shoot him in the leg to slow him down”, there’s no “warning shot”. That’s not how it works in real life. The time you spend firing a shot to scare your target is the time it takes him to draw the gun you didn’t know he had and shoot you in the face. Please see the above – People using firearms for self-defense are doing so in order to stop someone from doing something that will very likely greatly injure or kill that person. While death may occur that is not the intent. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1213 "2014-08-18T17:35:49Z")
Police use a simple color code to decide what to do with suspicious persons: White Nevada Rancher: Let them continue to steal from the government Light Brown Person: Ask for papers Dark Brown Person: Shoot! ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1214 "2014-08-18T17:36:16Z")
Sorry Elvis, I may have misread one of your previous sentences. Did you mean that Brown was less likely to avoid confrontation? Obviously not. It is a fact that he robbed the store. He appeared to be very confrontational. He didn’t care that anyone saw him. He was quite brazen. He was then walking down the middle of the street. That was confirmed by his friend. His friend has been proven to be a liar but I see no reason to doubt this since it doesn’t really help Brown. So we know he committed a robbery and then did nothing to hide from police or make himself less conspicuous. Just the opposite. Why? I don’t know. Was he drunk or high? Was he trying to impress his buddy? Was he used to using his size to intimidate people? Was he stupid? Or just immature? Maybe we will know at some point maybe we won’t. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1215 "2014-08-18T17:39:02Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Police use a simple color code to decide what to do with suspicious persons: > > White Nevada Rancher: Let them continue to steal from the government > Light Brown Person: Ask for papers > Dark Brown Person: Shoot! Yes that happens every time. You so smart. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1216 "2014-08-18T17:40:58Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > You want a police force that avoids confrontation? You can make up whatever you want to, but not if you want to participate in a good-faith discussion. A simple scroll-up will clarify for you that I’m concerned about who is the _aggressor_ in a killing. Your reasons for evading that issue are your own but deserve some discussion. > [@](#): > > Are you trying to establish a self defense motive? To whatever extent the aggressor was the officer, sure. Why would that not be self-defense? > [@](#): > > Then a physical contact happened Isn’t it about time you cut that shit? :dubious: Somebody was responsible for making that contact. You won’t make yourself say who it was or why or how. But that’s the fucking point, innit? > [@](#): > > Jaywalking may have gotten him noticed but it is dishonest to say in any way that he was killed for jaywalking. More of that evasive passive-tense shit. Why IYHO did Wilson kill Brown? > [@](#): > > 1. That’s why I asked the question. So far you are the only one to answer. Because I’m used to seeing you discuss topics honestly and in good faith. This is getting to be an exception, though. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1217 "2014-08-18T17:42:33Z")
> [@kinoons](#): > > In addition you have an article from the American Rifleman stating the purpose of using your handgun is getting the attacker to stop before he injures you > [Self-Defense Pistol 101 | An Official Journal Of The NRA](http://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/self-defense-pistol-101) > > There is the US News report that shows if a defender uses a firearm they generally suffer fewer injuries. Does not address the desire to stop the action instead of kill the attacker, but greatly supports the notion that a firearm has a defensive use. > [http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2013/06/25/study-using-guns-for-defense-leads-to-fewer-injuries](http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2013/06/25/study-using-guns-for-defense-leads-to-fewer-injuries) > > My link to the CDC report regarding the number of deaths vs the number of injuries of those shot is only intended to represent that firearms are not a magical death ray as some of the audience believes. > > So **bubbadog** , now it is your turn – please present some cite that states the sole purpose of a defensive handgun, and the training to use one, is to kill someone. Correct - and the only way to ensure that you _have_ stopped an attacker is to kill them, because a guy who’s on the ground clutching his chest and gasping for air can still kill you with his other hand. That is how you use a handgun for self-defense. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1218 "2014-08-18T17:42:52Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > “Wow” what? Is “it” no longer an acceptable pronoun to refer to a generic living being? Makes you look like one cold motherfucker. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1219 "2014-08-18T17:45:52Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Maybe. But Baden is pretty well-known, and has even waived his fee. It’s difficult for either side to paint this as someone who is selling a favorable opinion to a buyer. One of the things Baden is pretty well-known for is testifying in defense of OJ Simpson. In that case his [expert opinion](http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/index/nns172.htm) was that there were multiple killers with multiple weapons, none of them OJ. Note that this doesn’t disqualify anything he’s saying here, and what he has said seems to favor the cop, from what I can tell. But I’m speculating about the intention in having all these various autopsies to begin with, and I don’t think Baden’s reputation precludes him being a hired gun. > [@](#): > > Not sure I agree. His hands could have been up, in the sense that they were roughly level with his head. That’s a more natural surrender posture than a “reach for the sky” pose of hands completely over ones head and arms fully extended. Fair point, but it would seem the same would still apply. In that case, his arms would also have been away from his head, but to the side. ---
**Author:** ![Sinaptics](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Sinaptics](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaptics)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1220 "2014-08-18T17:46:32Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > (post shortened) > > You have to remember that this was the 2nd autopsy and Baden and the other examiner did not have access to everything in the 1st autopsy. The clothing had not been reexamined, the blood had been drained and replaced, the body may even have been washed (hopefully not). We haven’t received full findings yet, so I wasn’t trying to jump to a narrative. Clothing analysis, for instance, will probably tell us a lot. I was just adding another piece of data to the set. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354.md?page=60) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354.md?page=62)