# Ferguson, MO **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 12, 2014, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354 "2014-08-12T04:51:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 65
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1281 "2014-08-18T19:30:31Z")
> [@GrandWino](#): > > The weed doesn’t mean anything. He could have smoked it a week prior. And even if he had been high at the time of the incident, “Reefer Madness” is fiction. If anything, it would make him more docile. AFAIK it would not make him violent. But that’s not at issue. We know he was feeling pretty violent because 10 minutes prior he had shoved the store clerk. The key MJ issue as I see it is whether it would make him feel more euphoric and/or calm which would make him less likely to see the danger of assaulting a cop who he was ticked at, and would explain him walking in middle of the street minutes after robbing a store. [This is in contrast to the earlier theory that he was feeling threatened by the cop.] But of course, a lot depends on how much he had in him, as you note. ---
**Author:** ![Sinaptics](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Sinaptics](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaptics)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1282 "2014-08-18T19:31:56Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Oh my God he smoked pot??? That changes everything!!! Is it SOP that the officer get tested as well? You would think so, just for insurance reasons alone. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1283 "2014-08-18T19:36:20Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > The “good innocent little boy who was about to go to college” narrative _is_ going up in a puff of smoke, isn’t it? Nobody said innocent. Nor is it reasonable to think marijuana use is incompatible with college attendance. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Cubsfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Cubsfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cubsfan)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1284 "2014-08-18T19:37:49Z")
> [@Sinaptics](#): > > 1. The robbery, while coloring his character a bit, does not, by itself, lead to the conclusion that he was so violent that he needed to be shot down. Coloring his character a bit? Which part? The part where he physically assaulted the clerk who was probably half his size? Or the part where he was so out of touch with basic social norms that he didn’t even try to hide the fact that he was taking the cigars? ---
**Author:** ![Sinaptics](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Sinaptics](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaptics)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1285 "2014-08-18T19:39:38Z")
> [@Cubsfan](#): > > Coloring his character a bit? Which part? The part where he physically assaulted the clerk who was probably half his size? Or the part where he was so out of touch with basic social norms that he didn’t even try to hide the fact that he was taking the cigars? Yes. That, by itself, is not an execution worthy event. ---
**Author:** ![kinoons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/a698b9/32.png) [@kinoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kinoons)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1286 "2014-08-18T19:39:44Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > There is a difference between shooting someone until they stop moving, and shooting someone until they stop moving, then walking over and shooting them again. The first is self-defense. The second implies premeditation and malice. From the story we don’t know that the subject wasn’t moving when the pharmacist shot the attacker 5 more times, just that he was on the floor and supposedly unconscious. The point in either case is the same, the threat was over, so you don’t get to shoot them again. You don’t have to be dead to no longer be a threat, just unable to continue your attempts to cause harm to the person you’re attacking. If you’re on the ground crying in pain you’re no longer a threat. If you’re on the ground, crying in pain, and pointing a gun at me then you’re a threat and I can shoot you again. If you’re on the ground, crying in pain, and am holding a knife you’re not a threat. If you then try to get up and continue your attack then it is legal for the person being attacked to shoot you again. I bet I could teach this to the average high school freshman in about 10 minutes… ---
**Author:** ![Cubsfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Cubsfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cubsfan)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1287 "2014-08-18T19:47:03Z")
> [@Sinaptics](#): > > Yes. That, by itself, is not an execution worthy event. Good thing he wasn’t shot upon exiting the store then right? Seems to me he was shot after he got into a physical altercation with a police officer who, from the sounds of things, was trying to question/arrest him for the robbery. You think this cop never had any other chances to use excessive force and shoot/kill lawbreakers in the past? How many times in his career did he NOT shoot and what made this time different? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1288 "2014-08-18T19:47:09Z")
> [@El\_Kabong](#): > > Bolding mine. > > _KABLAM_ > > “That’ll teach those damn kids to step on my lawn!” Good point. Ask them to move first, as long as they’re far enough away not to be a threat, and if they don’t remove themselves from your property with alacrity, shoot them. The presumption should always be that the intruder is a threat, and that the owner is defending themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1289 "2014-08-18T19:47:10Z")
> [@kinoons](#): > > If you’re on the ground crying in pain you’re no longer a threat. If you’re on the ground, crying in pain, and pointing a gun at me then you’re a threat and I can shoot you again. If you’re on the ground, crying in pain, and am holding a knife you’re not a threat. If you then try to get up and continue your attack then it is legal for the person being attacked to shoot you again. The conversation seems to have shifted from what is _practical_ to what is _legal_. With handguns, as with nuclear weapons, the only 100% guaranteed effective first strike is one that completely annihilates the enemy. In the real world, as noted above, that may not always be legal. Note that, as I have previously said, I do not approve of civilian use of firearms, and I believe any civilian who escalates a confrontation to that level should be prosecuted. However, in a world where anyone and everyone could potentially have a gun, you should never ever draw yours unless you believe your opponent could possibly have one and you intend to kill them before they can use it on you. ---
**Author:** ![Cubsfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Cubsfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cubsfan)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1290 "2014-08-18T19:49:32Z")
This is officially the fastest most rapid fire thread in SDMB history. Pages just flying by. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1291 "2014-08-18T19:51:44Z")
> [@kinoons](#): > > I bet I could teach this to the average high school freshman in about 10 minutes… The average ones, sure. But there’s gonna be at least one wiseass who asks “what if the person you shot is pretending to be incapacitated/hurt worse than they really are, and is looking for another chance to attack you?” ---
**Author:** ![Sinaptics](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Sinaptics](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaptics)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1292 "2014-08-18T19:51:57Z")
> [@Cubsfan](#): > > Good thing he wasn’t shot upon exiting the store then right? Seems to me he was shot after he got into a physical altercation with a police officer who, from the sounds of things, was trying to question/arrest him for the robbery. > > You think this cop never had any other chances to use excessive force and shoot/kill lawbreakers in the past? How many times in his career did he NOT shoot and what made this time different? A physical altercation with an officer is also not, by itself, an okay to shoot. Regarding your last question, that’s a great question, one that I’m sure a lot of people would like answered. Unfortunately, we don’t have a history of complaints on the officer, as prior to 2010, any complaints were buried in the case files rather than going into a personnel file. I’m sure more will come out regarding the officer. I see a lot of FOIA requests in Ferguson’s future. ---
**Author:** ![Sinaptics](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Sinaptics](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaptics)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1293 "2014-08-18T19:53:52Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > The average ones, sure. But there’s gonna be at least one wiseass who asks “what if the person you shot is pretending to be incapacitated/hurt worse than they really are, and is looking for another chance to attack you?” Easy. Just because you stop pulling the trigger doesn’t mean that you let your guard down. You cover the person while authorities are contacted to take control of the situation. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1294 "2014-08-18T19:58:12Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > The average ones, sure. But there’s gonna be at least one wiseass who asks “what if the person you shot is pretending to be incapacitated/hurt worse than they really are, and is looking for another chance to attack you?” With a pointy-end stick? ---
**Author:** ![Cubsfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Cubsfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cubsfan)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1295 "2014-08-18T20:03:18Z")
> [@Sinaptics](#): > > A physical altercation with an officer is also not, by itself, an okay to shoot. > > Regarding your last question, that’s a great question, one that I’m sure a lot of people would like answered. Unfortunately, we don’t have a history of complaints on the officer, as prior to 2010, any complaints were buried in the case files rather than going into a personnel file. Well I guess we disagree on the first one. Hasn’t this guy only been on a force for something like 6 years (may be 9, can’t remember and don’t feel like looking up). That makes a very large % of his career occurring after 2010. What do you think the chances are that he was a trouble maker and/or behaved badly up till 2010 and then all the sudden went on a 4yr run of good behavior? ---
**Author:** ![Sinaptics](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Sinaptics](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaptics)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1296 "2014-08-18T20:10:59Z")
> [@Cubsfan](#): > > Well I guess we disagree on the first one. > > Hasn’t this guy only been on a force for something like 6 years (may be 9, can’t remember and don’t feel like looking up). That makes a very large % of his career occurring after 2010. What do you think the chances are that he was a trouble maker and/or behaved badly up till 2010 and then all the sudden went on a 4yr run of good behavior? You seriously think assault is grounds for death? What is this, Judge Dread? You do realize how often cops cite someone with assaulting an officer, right? Seems like every resisting arrest charge also carries that penalty anymore. Look, as stated up-thread, if there is no imminent threat of death, there are no grounds to shoot. Period. Full stop. Well, from the reports, the policy was changed in 2010 when the current police chief took over. I’m not aware if the changes have actually been implemented or when. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1297 "2014-08-18T20:16:42Z")
> [@Sinaptics](#): > > You seriously think assault is grounds for death? No, death is an unfortunate side effect of a reasonable response to assault. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1298 "2014-08-18T20:20:20Z")
Oh. So, when the store clerk was shoved, then he had every right to bring lethal force to bear? Wow, so when Joe Bob busted me in the nose because I boinked Laura Jean, I could have shot him? Shit, where were you when I needed you? ---
**Author:** ![Sinaptics](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Sinaptics](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaptics)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1299 "2014-08-18T20:21:56Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > No, death is an unfortunate side effect of a reasonable response to assault. Not when the subject has already disengaged, which brings us back to this situation. Was Brown attacking, or was he retreating? ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1300 "2014-08-18T20:33:07Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Oh. So, when the store clerk was shoved, then he had every right to bring lethal force to bear? Yeah, I think he did. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354.md?page=64) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354.md?page=66)