# Ferguson, MO **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 12, 2014, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354 "2014-08-12T04:51:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 67
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1321 "2014-08-18T22:25:08Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > We’re a pressurized system of tubes and pumps… We’re like The Internet! ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1322 "2014-08-18T22:28:58Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Brown stood at some distance from the officer, taunted him, and then charged. And then the officer shot him five times. And Brown kept coming. > > What kind of rabbit ammo do Ferguson cops use? Pistol ammo. The last time I saw the FBI stats (couple a years ago), pistols are only lethal approx 25% of the time. Taking into consideration how fast 1st responders appear and how well trained they are. Rifles and shotguns were lethal around 75% of the time. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1323 "2014-08-18T22:40:23Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > To be fair, unless something hits your spine or the good parts of your brain, you don’t necessarily fall instantly when shot. I recall reading somewhere that in the Old West, while gunfights were much less common than in popular imagination, in those that did happen it was not uncommon for both duelists to die. It is possible to be shot fatally, and then get off your own shot before you even notice you have been shot. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1324 "2014-08-18T22:55:21Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > I didn’t say anything about the officer. I agree we don’t know what happened yet, but we can judge how the police handled the events after the shooting and we can judge the history of police action. If you have a large segment of the community that is enraged at the actions of public servants, maybe they have a reason to be mad. I see your point if there was a systematic problem and not just the one incident you cited. And the flames have been stoked by “witnesses” spreading fake stories and wild rumors. However even if there are legitimate concerns that does not excuse the lawless behavior. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1325 "2014-08-18T22:56:28Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Correct - and the only way to ensure that you _have_ stopped an attacker is to kill them, because a guy who’s on the ground clutching his chest and gasping for air can still kill you with his other hand. That is how you use a handgun for self-defense. > [@kinoons](#): > > That was my point – **smapti** had emphasized that the only way an attacker could no longer be a threat is if he was dead. That article was intended to show that the law and common sense says otherwise. Not quite. **smapti** said the only way _ **to ensure** _ that you have stopped an attacker is to kill them. That’s not the same as saying it was the only way an attacker could no longer be a threat. A dead attacker can’t attack you. A live mugger/rapist/murderer might be faking their injuries just to draw you in or get you to drop your guard. The police or EMTs can take his pulse better than I could. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1326 "2014-08-18T23:12:32Z")
> [@kinoons](#): > > That was my point – **smapti** had emphasized that the only way an attacker could no longer be a threat is if he was dead. That article was intended to show that the law and common sense says otherwise. As a general statement, this one suffers from a flaw: it addresses Oklahoma law, apparently. Shouldn’t you be asking yourself what Missouri law says on the subject? Of course, it may be that Missouri law is no different. I haven’t checked. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1327 "2014-08-18T23:15:23Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > I see your point if there was a systematic problem and not just the one incident you cited. And the flames have been stoked by “witnesses” spreading fake stories and wild rumors. However even if there are legitimate concerns that does not excuse the lawless behavior. I’d be interested in hearing your take on the Boston Tea Party. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1328 "2014-08-18T23:25:46Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > The “good innocent little boy who was about to go to college” narrative _is_ going up in a puff of smoke, isn’t it? Call me crazy, but I think college kids smoke more dope than anybody. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1329 "2014-08-18T23:27:49Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > I see your point if there was a systematic problem and not just the one incident you cited… Well, what happened to the officers who did it? If the answer is “not much”, would that suggest to you that a systematic problem exists? Perhaps we can devolve into a semantic nitpick over “condone”, “encourage” or “accept”. > [@](#): > > …And the flames have been stoked by “witnesses” spreading fake stories and wild rumors… We’ve all been paying attention, trying to grasp facts, but its like standing in a wind tunnel with a shredded novel being blown about, and trying to assemble the story. But, you, you’ve got the facts! Huzzah! Bring please, with ample citation, that we may separate the real truth from all these lying “witnesses” and “wild rumors”! Be a cite for sour eyes, it would! > [@](#): > > … However even if there are legitimate concerns that does not excuse the lawless behavior. Of course not. But are citizens to be barred from protest they believe necessary because thugs may interfere? Because, what, its their fault that thugs exist? ---
**Author:** ![LibrarySpy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f9ae1b/32.png) [@LibrarySpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LibrarySpy)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1330 "2014-08-18T23:55:00Z")
Seriously? You’re seriously arguing that there’s no systemic racial bias in policing? You’ve never witnessed it? Ever? > [@Loach](#): > > does not excuse the lawless behavior. Even on the part of the police? Edit: [Sorry, cite](http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&q=racial+bias+police&btnG=&as_sdt=1%2C34&as_sdtp=). Reality has a liberal bias, I know, I know. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1331 "2014-08-19T00:03:17Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > … > > Of course not. But are citizens to be barred from protest they believe necessary because thugs may interfere? Because, what, its their fault that thugs exist? Legitimate protests don’t include Molotov cocktails and looting. I think that’s the point you’re missing. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1332 "2014-08-19T00:10:07Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > Legitimate protests don’t include Molotov cocktails and looting. I think that’s the point you’re missing. Maybe somebody ought to make that clear to them, the legitimate protestors assembling to petition for a redress of grievances (I stole that last bit, guess where?) Let them know if that they proceed with their protest, and somebody does something violent and stupid, its their fault. That seems to be the point _they_ are missing. ---
**Author:** ![kinoons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/a698b9/32.png) [@kinoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kinoons)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1333 "2014-08-19T00:13:24Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Not quite. **smapti** said the only way _ **to ensure** _ that you have stopped an attacker is to kill them. > > That’s not the same as saying it was the only way an attacker could no longer be a threat. > > A dead attacker can’t attack you. A live mugger/rapist/murderer might be faking their injuries just to draw you in or get you to drop your guard. The police or EMTs can take his pulse better than I could. **doorhinge** I believe that we’re talking semantics here, but just to keep things clear, but the distinction is there, yes. I believe that if you use a handgun in self defense it is done so to compel someone to stop doing what they are doing. **Smapti** believes it is done to kill someone, because that is the only way to ensure the threat is gone. > [@Bricker](#): > > As a general statement, this one suffers from a flaw: it addresses Oklahoma law, apparently. Shouldn’t you be asking yourself what Missouri law says on the subject? > > Of course, it may be that Missouri law is no different. I haven’t checked. I was under the impression that **Smapti** and I were speaking in generalities, not referencing one specific state over another. Missouri laws are listed here: [http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/chapters/chap563.htm](http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/chapters/chap563.htm) While I’ll admit that legal interpretation is not my strong suit, they appear to be similar to what has been previously referenced. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1334 "2014-08-19T00:16:53Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Well, what happened to the officers who did it? If the answer is “not much”, would that suggest to you that a systematic problem exists? Perhaps we can devolve into a semantic nitpick over “condone”, “encourage” or “accept”. > We’ve all been paying attention, trying to grasp facts, but its like standing in a wind tunnel with a shredded novel being blown about, and trying to assemble the story. But, you, you’ve got the facts! Huzzah! Bring please, with ample citation, that we may separate the real truth from all these lying “witnesses” and “wild rumors”! > > Be a cite for sour eyes, it would! > Of course not. But are citizens to be barred from protest they believe necessary because thugs may interfere? Because, what, its their fault that thugs exist? You can look back in this thread to see the cites about how he was on his knees and with his back turned when he was executed. All coming from supposed witnesses. Those were the rumors that fueled the flames. I hope you realize none of that is true now. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1335 "2014-08-19T00:19:23Z")
> [@LibrarySpy](#): > > Seriously? You’re seriously arguing that there’s no systemic racial bias in policing? You’ve never witnessed it? Ever?.. Let’s see you’ve got systematic attempts to keep blacks out of the political power structure: > [@](#): > > Many North County towns — and inner-ring suburbs nationally — resemble Ferguson. Longtime white residents have consolidated power, continuing to dominate the City Councils and school boards despite sweeping demographic change. They have retained control of patronage jobs and municipal contracts awarded to allies. > > The North County Labor Club, whose overwhelmingly white constituent unions (plumbers, pipe fitters, electrical workers, sprinkler fitters) have benefited from these arrangements, operates a potent voter-turnout operation that backs white candidates over black upstarts. The more municipal contracts an organization receives, the more generously it can fund re-election campaigns. Construction, waste and other long-term contracts with private firms have traditionally excluded blacks from the ownership side and, usually, the work force as well. and essentially taxation without representation: > [@](#): > > The region’s fragmentation isn’t limited to the odd case of a city shedding its county. St. Louis County contains 90 municipalities, most with their own city hall and police force. Many rely on revenue generated from traffic tickets and related fines. According to a study by the St. Louis nonprofit Better Together, Ferguson receives nearly one-quarter of its revenue from court fees; for some surrounding towns it approaches 50 percent. > … > With primarily white police forces that rely disproportionately on traffic citation revenue, blacks are pulled over, cited and arrested in numbers far exceeding their population share, according to a recent report from Missouri’s attorney general. In Ferguson last year, 86 percent of stops, 92 percent of searches and 93 percent of arrests were of black people — despite the fact that police officers were far less likely to find contraband on black drivers (22 percent versus 34 percent of whites). This worsens inequality, as struggling blacks do more to fund local government than relatively affluent whites. > **[Opinion | In Ferguson, Black Town, White Power (Published 2014)](https://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/18/opinion/in-ferguson-black-town-white-power.html?_r=0)** > > African-Americans need a bigger share of Ferguson’s political pie. This whole thing reads like a second amendment advocate’s wet dream. Why aren’t the conservatives on the side of the rebels in this one? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1336 "2014-08-19T00:52:22Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > You can look back in this thread to see the cites about how he was on his knees and with his back turned when he was executed. All coming from supposed witnesses. Those were the rumors that fueled the flames. I hope you realize none of that is true now. I had three objections to what you posted, you answered the one you are most comfortable with? Well, OK, may we fairly assume you agree with the other two? Excellent! You’re coming along nicely! Now, these horrid rumors that started all the trouble. Let me get this straight: if the patchy information we have now were known to the public at large, then these horrible rumors would have been prevented. Brown is still dead, shot at least six times, but probably not from the back and certainly not in a kneeling position (this last one is news to me, I had not heard any such rumor, mind giving us the source?). Then they wouldn’t have been all pissed off, no protest, no problem? That’s an interesting opinion. And that’s all it is. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1337 "2014-08-19T01:52:51Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > Legitimate protests don’t include Molotov cocktails and looting. I think that’s the point you’re missing. You mean like in Prague, Budapest and Dublin? Uprisings are messy by definition, the history books clean them up. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1338 "2014-08-19T02:01:25Z")
> [@kinoons](#): > > **doorhinge** I believe that we’re talking semantics here, but just to keep things clear, but the distinction is there, yes. I believe that if you use a handgun in self defense it is done so to compel someone to stop doing what they are doing. **Smapti** believes it is done to kill someone, because that is the only way to ensure the threat is gone. (post shortened) Unfortunately, killing your attacker does ensure that the imminent danger/threat is gone. There are other ways to use a handgun for self-defense to compel someone to stop doing what they are doing. Brandishing a weapon can compel compliance. Brandishing a weapon is also illegal in many states. Do you feel like playing States Attorney roulette? Firing a weapon thru a closed and locked door can also compel compliance (another Joe Bidenism) proving that you do indeed have a weapon. However, if you are behind a closed and locked door, you are not actually in imminent danger and could be consider to be endangering the public. Hopefully, the SA decides to give you a break and not have you arrested. You could fire warning shots in the direction of the imminent threat intending to show that you mean business. But that isn’t a legally justified use of deadly force to end an imminent threat. You’re just endangering the public, again. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1339 "2014-08-19T02:16:45Z")
> [@Drunky\_Smurf](#): > > Since we’re sharing stories of when we did not get shot. Let me tell you about yesterday. Yesterday was hot as balls. Balls so hot even the dog wouldn’t lick them. Anyways I was almost out of milk and it was starting to cause some concern because what else am I going to put on my Fruit Loops right? It’s not like I’m going to pour ice tea on my Count Chocula like some tard. > > So I head over to the my local grocer and as I’m walking down the dairy ailse this lady pulls up next to me with her cart and starts asking questions. Questions like I’m some kind of question askerer person or something. This lady was making me nervous as she kept persisiting with the questions. > > So enventually I did asnwer her and I told her the strawberry jam was a couple of ailes over. Eventually I make it back home and proceeded to enjoy the hell out of a bowl of Frosted Flakes. > > Anyway, that day I did not shot. I too, have a true story to tell. Forgive my thousand-yard stare, as this experience was very…difficult. This Saturday I was out dancing at one of my favorite clubs, mostly by myself and with some friends, when a cute little college girl came up and asked me to dance with her. We danced close, we danced apart. We danced slow, and we danced fast. She loved to move in close and put my hands around her neck as she ground against my thigh. Then one of the club boys came by. He was dressed in nothing but bunny ears, a g-string, and Sketchers, and was carrying a tray of jello shots. My dance partner grabbed two shots, and tossed one back. She gave me a sly grin, and then pulled her top down to her tummy, freeing a surprisingly awesome pair of 22 year-old breasts. She leaned back and poured the jello out onto her left breast, just above the nipple. The jello was green. It quivered with the promise of ecstasy. I almost sobbed as I told her, “I’m sorry, I’m the designated driver tonight.” And on that bleak and unforgiving Saturday, I did not take the shot. ---
**Author:** ![kinoons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/a698b9/32.png) [@kinoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kinoons)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1340 "2014-08-19T02:24:52Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > (post shortened) > > Unfortunately, killing your attacker does ensure that the imminent danger/threat is gone. > > There are other ways to use a handgun for self-defense to compel someone to stop doing what they are doing. Brandishing a weapon can compel compliance. Brandishing a weapon is also illegal in many states. Do you feel like playing States Attorney roulette? Firing a weapon thru a closed and locked door can also compel compliance (another Joe Bidenism) proving that you do indeed have a weapon. However, if you are behind a closed and locked door, you are not actually in imminent danger and could be consider to be endangering the public. Hopefully, the SA decides to give you a break and not have you arrested. You could fire warning shots in the direction of the imminent threat intending to show that you mean business. But that isn’t a legally justified use of deadly force to end an imminent threat. You’re just endangering the public, again. Now I’m confused, as I have not advocated for any of those. The point I was making is that the defensive use of a handgun involves making center of mass hits on your attacker until he either disengages or is unable to continue attacking you. I contend that the death of my attacker isn’t the goal, where as others sate his death is the goal. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354.md?page=66) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354.md?page=68)