# Ferguson, MO **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 12, 2014, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354 "2014-08-12T04:51:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 71
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1401 "2014-08-19T16:54:25Z")
**Steve** , you are overdoing it. We don’t know that he “emptied his gun”, unless you’ve got something I didn’t see. The fact is that he was shot at least six times, and the facts are damning enough. Also, the “videotape shows paying” is still a maybe, it raises questions, it does not answer them. It would, however, explain why Mr Brown was so much at ease strolling down the street as if he had nothing to worry about, but that remains a “maybe”. As far as the “pot crazed loony” meme goes, I don’t recall anything about a “paid expert”, IIRC, that was simply another “source”. If correction is appropriate, I will welcome it. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1402 "2014-08-19T16:57:43Z")
Activists in Ferguson (where the majority is black but the mayor is white and the city council almost all white) respond to the crisis with . . . a voter-registration drive. [Republicans blast them for “Injecting race into this conversation”.](http://www.salon.com/2014/08/19/gops_insane_ferguson_crusade_now_theyre_denouncing_voter_registration_drives/) ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1403 "2014-08-19T16:59:04Z")
Take a look at [the PR firm the city just hired](http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/08/18/1322673/-The-City-of-Ferguson-hires-PR-firm), as if. Notice anything, er, monochromatic about them? ---
**Author:** ![Cubsfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Cubsfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cubsfan)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1404 "2014-08-19T16:59:59Z")
> [@Sinaptics](#): > > Again, just because the officer got socked in the eye doesn’t give him the right to kill someone. If the perpetrator isn’t a lethal threat, you don’t get to shoot. Period. Full stop. So you’re saying that by taking on the job of a police officer you are agreeing to take beat downs from citizens as one of the hazards of work? Mike Tyson weighed about 225 I think. Holyfield was around the same. Brock Lesnar is 290. Michael Brown weighed 300lbs and is several inches taller than any of those guys. You think a cop should be able to take him in a fist fight just because he’s a cop? Would you feel your life was threatened if you got blasted in the face by any one of those guys? What if the cop was a 150lb woman? Would you feel the same? ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1405 "2014-08-19T17:01:28Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > … > > It’s time to prosecute bad cops instead of protecting them. It’s time to stop demonizing their victims. It’s time to take away their army toys because they have shown they can’t be trusted. It’s time to put cameras that they can NOT turn off in their cars and on their persons. It’s time to get back to at least the ideal of “preserve and protect” and get away from “you will submit”. Enough is enough. You have obviously had some sever trauma at the hands of cops. Care to discuss it? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1406 "2014-08-19T17:03:58Z")
[This might be the Ferguson PD’s attack-dog / firehose photo.](http://cdn-media.nationaljournal.com/?controllerName=image&action=get&id=41211&format=nj2013_10_columns) ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1407 "2014-08-19T17:03:59Z")
**Cubsfan** , you’re missing the point. First, you have no idea if the cop was punched or not. The only evidence of his injury, so far, is a right-wing blog’s reporting, and even then you don’t know how he received it. And second, getting punched doesn’t mean you get to shoot someone. We need to know more about what actually went down before you know whether the shooting was justified. Your’re complaining about others jumping to conclusions, but you’re also giving a very good demonstration of what that looks like. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1408 "2014-08-19T17:04:13Z")
> [@Sinaptics](#): > > I noticed that too, however, at the very bottom of the article it states **“Officer Darren Wilson left the state of Missouri last week.”** I thought it perhaps possible that the x-ray was taken there if he was immediately whisked from the state. If people were rioting and issuing death threats to you and your family because you had the audacity to fight back after being assaulted by a drugged-out shoplifter, you’d want to be Somewhere Else too. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1409 "2014-08-19T17:04:42Z")
> [@Cubsfan](#): > > … > > Michael Brown weighed 300lbs and is several inches taller than any of those guys. > > … 300 pounds, and 6’ 4" That’s a pretty big dude. ---
**Author:** ![Sinaptics](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Sinaptics](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaptics)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1410 "2014-08-19T17:05:26Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > If people were rioting and issuing death threats to you and your family because you had the audacity to fight back after being assaulted by a drugged-out shoplifter, you’d want to be Somewhere Else too. Damn straight, guilty or innocent. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1411 "2014-08-19T17:06:17Z")
> [@Sinaptics](#): > > It’s where the pathologist stated that the arm is a very mobile appendage and it’s position can’t be stated with certainty. (Not exact quote) Yes, but that just explains that a bullet entry at the back of the arm didn’t necessarily come from the rear of the person. It doesn’t address the path of the bullet through the arm. ---
**Author:** ![Sinaptics](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Sinaptics](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaptics)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1412 "2014-08-19T17:07:07Z")
> [@Cubsfan](#): > > So you’re saying that by taking on the job of a police officer you are agreeing to take beat downs from citizens as one of the hazards of work? > > Mike Tyson weighed about 225 I think. > Holyfield was around the same. > Brock Lesnar is 290. > > Michael Brown weighed 300lbs and is several inches taller than any of those guys. > > You think a cop should be able to take him in a fist fight just because he’s a cop? Would you feel your life was threatened if you got blasted in the face by any one of those guys? What if the cop was a 150lb woman? Would you feel the same? And if they were fighting toe to toe, that might be a reason for him to use his weapon. But many reports have Brown exiting the scene when he was shot. If that’s the case, then no, the officer didn’t have cause to shoot. He could have responded non-lethally such as a takedown, taser, or mace. He could have radioed for backup and assisted in sealing the area. What he doesn’t get to do is pull his gun and shoot the guy for hitting him. Or he could have just let him go and got him later with, you know, police work. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1413 "2014-08-19T17:07:35Z")
> [@Sinaptics](#): > > Again, just because the officer got socked in the eye doesn’t give him the right to kill someone. If the perpetrator isn’t a lethal threat, you don’t get to shoot. Period. Full stop. So the appropriate response would have been what? To ask his assailant politely to please stop hitting him? Should he have called for a time-out while he opened the trunk of his cruiser and got out the Taser? The suspect had already assaulted him and made a play for his gun. He was a deadly threat and the officer had the legal authority to use force. Every new revelation is making the “THE COP MURDERED THIS POOR UNARMED BOY BECAUSE HE WAS RACIST AND DECIDED TO GO OUT THAT MORNING AND KILL SOME BLACK PEOPLE” narrative harder and harder to justify. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1414 "2014-08-19T17:09:07Z")
> [@Sinaptics](#): > > And if they were fighting toe to toe, that might be a reason for him to use his weapon. But many reports have Brown exiting the scene when he was shot. If that’s the case, then no, the officer didn’t have cause to shoot. Exiting while facing the officer with his hands outstretched in the officer’s direction. Riiiiight. > [@](#): > > He could have responded non-lethally such as a takedown, taser, or mace. He could have radioed for backup and assisted in sealing the area. What he doesn’t get to do is pull his gun and shoot the guy for hitting him. Unless the police also have access to Star Trek-style transporters, the only area they would likely have arrived to seal in time was the site of the officer’s death. ---
**Author:** ![Cubsfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Cubsfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cubsfan)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1415 "2014-08-19T17:12:39Z")
> [@Sinaptics](#): > > And if they were fighting toe to toe, that might be a reason for him to use his weapon. But many reports have Brown exiting the scene when he was shot. If that’s the case, then no, the officer didn’t have cause to shoot. > > He could have responded non-lethally such as a takedown, taser, or mace. He could have radioed for backup and assisted in sealing the area. What he doesn’t get to do is pull his gun and shoot the guy for hitting him. Or he could have just let him go and got him later with, you know, police work. The real world doesn’t operate the same way fights in elementary school did where a couple people slap and push each other then one cries “Uncle. That’s enough man. You win!”. Once you physically attack somebody you’ve taken your life in your own hands as they defend themselves, plain and simple. If the cop chased the dude down the block and shot him while he was running away then you’d have a point, but it doesn’t sound like there was enough time for this to be a retribution/revenge killing as you describe. It all happened very quickly from the sounds of it. Which is probably why no one captured the incident on a cell phone camera, or at least hasn’t turned over a video of the incident… ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1416 "2014-08-19T17:15:28Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > You have obviously had some sever trauma at the hands of cops. Care to discuss it? I find it difficult to take cautionary advice not to jump to conclusions from anyone willing to pronounce something like this based on part of a post on a message board. I’ve never had a traumatic encounter with cops. Been yelled at once and treated brusquely several times, but that’s the extent of it for me and most white males of my age. But I agree fully with **SteveG1** that “protect and serve” _must_ be given higher priority than “submit to authority.” Yes, respect for the orders of a law enforcement officer is necessary for a civil society, but those orders must be based on something besides dominance and control. ---
**Author:** ![Sinaptics](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Sinaptics](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaptics)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1417 "2014-08-19T17:18:38Z")
I’m starting to think we’re all looking at two entirely different situations. Here is the situation as I see it: **Preliminary:** There was a scuffle between the officer and Brown. The officer contents that his weapon discharged inside the vehicle as Brown went for it. This, as far as I can tell, is unverified. I’m unaware of any witness statements that mention a fight with the office at the vehicle. Additionally, if Brown’s hands were inside the car when the weapon fired, it’s been mentioned (by me) that he should gunpowder residue on his hands from being in an enclosed space and within such a short distance of the weapon. However, clothing analysis has not been disclosed and may reveal more. What happens next is entire crux of the situation. **Bad Fire situation:** Witnesses contend that Brown was exiting the scene when the officer fired at his back. Brown turned and was struck several more times while trying to surrender. They had Brown at some distance to the cop. This would be a bad shoot scenario. The suspect is no longer a lethal force and it looks like the cop is pissed and taking it out on the suspect. **Good Fire situation:** The Officer contents that Brown moved away from the vehicle and as the officer exited, Brown taunted, then charged the officer. This would be a proper shoot as the officer can say that he had a reasonable fear for his safety and life. I’m just trying to figure out which is which. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1418 "2014-08-19T17:22:06Z")
> [@Sinaptics](#): > > And if they were fighting toe to toe, that might be a reason for him to use his weapon. But many reports have Brown exiting the scene when he was shot. If that’s the case, then no, the officer didn’t have cause to shoot. > > He could have responded non-lethally such as a takedown, taser, or mace. He could have radioed for backup and assisted in sealing the area. What he doesn’t get to do is pull his gun and shoot the guy for hitting him. Or he could have just let him go and got him later with, you know, police work. Did Brown intentionally slam the cruiser door on the officer? Did Brown intentionally strike the officer in the face? Did Brown intentionally try to wrestle away the officers gun? Did Brown intentionally, in a threatening manner, charge at the officer? Are any of those felonies in MO? In the officers eyes, had Brown become a felon? Does any of that change anything? ---
**Author:** ![Sinaptics](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Sinaptics](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaptics)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1419 "2014-08-19T17:23:57Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > Did Brown intentionally slam the cruiser door on the officer? > > Did Brown intentionally strike the officer in the face? > > Did Brown intentionally try to wrestle away the officers gun? > > Did Brown intentionally, in a threatening manner, charge at the officer? > > Are any of those felonies in MO? > > In the officers eyes, had Brown become a felon? > > Does any of that change anything? Not if Brown was no longer was a lethal threat. Felon != Death Warrant. It’s really very simple. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1420 "2014-08-19T17:24:46Z")
One quibble, **Sinaptics** , I think multiple witnesses confirm that some sort of struggle occurred at the window of the police vehicle. I’ve seen two witnesses say they thought Wilson was trying to pull Brown into the car. This doesn’t make much sense, but if Wilson was trying to open the door and Brown was pushing him back into the car, it would look much the same and be more plausible IMO. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354.md?page=70) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354.md?page=72)