# Ferguson, MO **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 12, 2014, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354 "2014-08-12T04:51:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 72
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1421 "2014-08-19T17:25:40Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > **Cubsfan** , you’re missing the point. First, you have no idea if the cop was punched or not. The only evidence of his injury, so far, is a right-wing blog’s reporting, and even then you don’t know how he received it. Bull. > **[Ferguson Police Chief Says Officer Involved in Shooting Was Injured - Newsweek](https://www.newsweek.com/ferguson-police-chief-says-officer-involved-shooting-was-injured-264511)** > > Police Chief Thomas Jackson told a news conference the officer, who hasn't been named, was treated in hospital for swelling on the side of his face ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1422 "2014-08-19T17:28:04Z")
So it’s been over a week now and there are still riots nightly. We’ve seen the local cops replaced by the state police and the state police replaced (or augmented with) the national guard. Still the rioting doesn’t cease. A question for those of you who insisted the rioting was all the result of the actions of the local police and their response to the crowds. Are you ready to admit that you were wrong yet? At this point I think it’s clear that the police response hasn’t been harsh enough. Every person on the street in the area of the rioting should be arrested. Anyone shooting at cops or throwing molotov cocktails at cops should be shot. This is what should have been done from the beginning and if it were we wouldn’t be in this mess now. Troublemakers from all over the country are coming in too add fuel to the flames. It’s time to take the gloves off. This is getting ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![Sinaptics](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Sinaptics](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaptics)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1423 "2014-08-19T17:28:36Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Bull. > > [Ferguson Police Chief Says Officer Involved in Shooting Was Injured - Newsweek](http://www.newsweek.com/ferguson-police-chief-says-officer-involved-shooting-was-injured-264511) Unfortunately, (and this only relates to me) I can’t accept a simple swelling injury as proof without more information. It would be exceedingly easy to fake. If a shot to the cheek would save me a decade in jail, you better believe I’d be asking a buddy to give me a good one. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1424 "2014-08-19T17:30:08Z")
> [@Sinaptics](#): > > Not if Brown was no longer was a lethal threat. Felon != Death Warrant. It’s really very simple. You’re saying he was no longer a threat, but it’s the officers view that’s important here. (edited) ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1425 "2014-08-19T17:30:47Z")
> [@Sinaptics](#): > > Unfortunately, (and this only relates to me) I can’t accept a simple swelling injury as proof without more information. It would be exceedingly easy to fake. If a shot to the cheek would save me a decade in jail, you better believe I’d be asking a buddy to give me a good one. **Richard Parker** was asking for evidence of injury, claiming that the only such evidence was from a right-wing blog. That’s bull. ---
**Author:** ![Sinaptics](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Sinaptics](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaptics)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1426 "2014-08-19T17:31:47Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > So it’s been over a week now and there are still riots nightly. > > We’ve seen the local cops replaced by the state police and the state police replaced (or augmented with) the national guard. > > Still the rioting doesn’t cease. > > A question for those of you who insisted the rioting was all the result of the actions of the local police and their response to the crowds. Are you ready to admit that you were wrong yet? > > At this point I think it’s clear that the police response hasn’t been harsh enough. Every person on the street in the area of the rioting should be arrested. Anyone shooting at cops or throwing molotov cocktails at cops should be shot. This is what should have been done from the beginning and if it were we wouldn’t be in this mess now. > > Troublemakers from all over the country are coming in too add fuel to the flames. > > It’s time to take the gloves off. This is getting ridiculous. I’m not sure what the correct answer is, Debaser. Riots aren’t my forte. I’m fairly sure that a brutal crackdown on the people protesting police brutality isn’t the way to go, though. ---
**Author:** ![chicagowhitesox1173](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/46a35a/32.png) [@chicagowhitesox1173](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chicagowhitesox1173)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1427 "2014-08-19T17:34:06Z")
I don’t understand why the cop had to shoot this kid 6 times. That’s what really gets me about the whole thing. Even if I was being attacked, I don’t think I would shoot a guy 6 times. Yet we have a trained officer shoot this kid 6 times. Either this cop is the biggest racist ever or something really pissed him off to shoot him 6 times. I would have to guess that this Brown really provoked him, Wilson only shot Brown, if this was a race thing, wouldn’t Wilson shoot Browns friend too. I mean the video even show’s Brown taunting a store owner. This Brown kid was looking for trouble. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1428 "2014-08-19T17:34:26Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > I’ve never had a traumatic encounter with cops. Been yelled at once and treated brusquely several times, but that’s the extent of it for me and most white males of my age. But I agree fully with **SteveG1** that “protect and serve” _must_ be given higher priority than “submit to authority.” Yes, respect for the orders of a law enforcement officer is necessary for a civil society, but those orders must be based on something besides dominance and control. As a practical matter, it’s very difficult to have “protect and serve” without “submit to authority”. As indicated early on in this thread, IME a lot of people become cops because they like ordering people around, and they focus too much on their petty power over people, in line with your experiences. But while it’s worth trying to improve this if possible, it may not be fully possible, and if it’s a choice of one or the other I’d rather have overly power-craving cops than impotent ones. IMO the cops deliberately turning back and allowing looters to loot at will last Friday night was worse than them tear-gassing protestors. YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1429 "2014-08-19T17:37:07Z")
> [@chicagowhitesox1173](#): > > I don’t understand why the cop had to shoot this kid 6 times. That’s what really gets me about the whole thing. Even if I was being attacked, I don’t think I would shoot a guy 6 times. Got a lot of experience shooting people, do you? When the adrenaline is flying cops generally empty their guns once the shooting starts. It’s just human nature. ---
**Author:** ![Cubsfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Cubsfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cubsfan)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1430 "2014-08-19T17:38:59Z")
> [@chicagowhitesox1173](#): > > I don’t understand why the cop had to shoot this kid 6 times. That’s what really gets me about the whole thing. Even if I was being attacked, I don’t think I would shoot a guy 6 times. Yet we have a trained officer shoot this kid 6 times. Either this cop is the biggest racist ever or something really pissed him off to shoot him 6 times. I would have to guess that this Brown really provoked him, Wilson only shot Brown, if this was a race thing, wouldn’t Wilson shoot Browns friend too. Or maybe the guy is just a human being who was in the process of being traumatized by having to take another human beings life that he kept pulling the trigger. You ask this like the guy had mucho experience firing his weapon at a live target and this should’ve just been another day where he ran through the procedure. It’s so easy for armchair warriors to say what they would or wouldn’t do if they were in a life threatening situation. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1431 "2014-08-19T17:39:13Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > IMO the cops deliberately turning back and allowing looters to loot at will last Friday night was worse than them tear-gassing protestors. YMMV. Exactly. Appeasement doesn’t work. You let them do it one night and they know they can get away with it the next night too. The amazing thing is that they’re torching the businesses of their own community. Do they think that the gas station and convenience store and Walmart are all going to rebuild when this is over? I know I wouldn’t. I’d take the insurance money and rebuild in a community that doesn’t act like that. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1432 "2014-08-19T17:39:46Z")
> [@chicagowhitesox1173](#): > > I don’t understand why the cop had to shoot this kid 6 times. That’s what really gets me about the whole thing. Even if I was being attacked, I don’t think I would shoot a guy 6 times. Yet we have a trained officer shoot this kid 6 times. Either this cop is the biggest racist ever or something really pissed him off to shoot him 6 times. I would have to guess that this Brown really provoked him, Wilson only shot Brown, if this was a race thing, wouldn’t Wilson shoot Browns friend too. If (note the if) he was coming toward the policeman and if the first four hits didn’t stop him (the autopsy said they were non-lethal) then two more were required. ---
**Author:** ![Sinaptics](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Sinaptics](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaptics)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1433 "2014-08-19T17:39:47Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > You’re saying he was no longer a threat, but it’s the officers view that’s important here. > (edited) Well, a reasonable person’s view, I believe. Or in other words, would/could a reasonable person in the officer’s situation conclude that he was under immediate threat. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1434 "2014-08-19T17:40:52Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > I’ll also let the point regarding witness corroboration rest, as there will be at least two other autopsy reports and a wealth of other forensic evidence that may establish one particular scenario more definitely. > > But I will ask where you found a statement reported that the arm wound was “indeterminate in terms of shot direction” as I can’t find any such verbiage included in the article. I’m pretty sure shot direction through tissue can usually be determined, but that may not be true with some “grazing” wounds, and I can’t recall any definite statement from anybody that it’s unclear in the case of the arm wound. From the actual press conference - \*Medical examiner, lawyers answer questions about Michael Brown’s autopsy \* (34:47 total time) 16:40 - Shawn Parcells begins explaining Brown’s wounds. 17:42 - _We’ve got a wound that entered the medial aspect of the right forearm._ (Which, I believe, is the wound that many people have questions about?) 18:52 - Parcells again discusses the medial forearm wound. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/fhHhlu-IqVw/maxresdefault.jpg "Medical examiner, lawyers answer questions about Michael Brown's autopsy") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhHhlu-IqVw) Because the arm is a very mobile part of the body, the examiners can not specifically say from what direction the bullet came when it entered the forearm. The would is consistent with many angles of entry. Any media outlet that states this bullet entered Brown’s forearm while Brown had his back towards the officer is guessing or trying to bullshit the public. I think it’s also important to note that the 2nd autopsy’s examiners couldn’t have found any gunshot residue on Brown’s body because the 2nd autopsy’s examiners did not look for any. ---
**Author:** ![Sinaptics](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Sinaptics](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaptics)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1435 "2014-08-19T17:44:44Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > If (note the if) he was coming toward the policeman and if the first four hits didn’t stop him (the autopsy said they were non-lethal) then two more were required. I just want to preface that I really don’t think this is an issue in this case. I would say it comes down to the spacing. Did he squeeze off 6 in quick succession? Or did he fire four times and when Brown was already down, shoot two more? From what I’ve gathered through witness statements, the shots seem to have been fired with very little gap, except for maybe the first two. I don’t think this is an overwhelmingly important issue in this scenario. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1436 "2014-08-19T17:46:42Z")
> [@chicagowhitesox1173](#): > > I don’t understand why the cop had to shoot this kid 6 times. That’s what really gets me about the whole thing. (post shortened) Maybe the officer was responding to his training? Maybe it took six bullets to terminate the threat? Maybe the officer ran out of bullets? ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1437 "2014-08-19T17:47:28Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > If (note the if) he was coming toward the policeman and if the first four hits didn’t stop him (the autopsy said they were non-lethal) then two more were required. If he was hit on the top of the head, then he was already going down when the cop fired for the last time. It seems to me that after each shot, he could have retreated a bit to see how badly the victim was hurt before deciding that he had to kill him. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1438 "2014-08-19T17:48:09Z")
> **[Deadly Force: What Does The Law Say About When Police Are Allowed To Use It?](https://news.stlpublicradio.org/government-politics-issues/2014-08-10/deadly-force-what-does-the-law-say-about-when-police-are-allowed-to-use-it)** > > The Constitution does not permit police to fire at unarmed, nonviolent, fleeing suspects unless there is a significant threat of death or serious physical… This article discusses the use of deadly force by officers with respect to fleeing felons. It doesn’t answer any questions with respect to this case, but it provides the framework for the DOJ review. If you apply the set of facts you choose to believe in this matter, you can predict the outcome, but at this time, it’s pure speculation at best. ---
**Author:** ![Sinaptics](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Sinaptics](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaptics)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1439 "2014-08-19T17:51:10Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > If he was hit on the top of the head, then he was already going down when the cop fired for the last time. It seems to me that after each shot, he could have retreated a bit to see how badly the victim was hurt before deciding that he had to kill him. The average sprinting human can cover about 30 feet in 2 seconds. There really isn’t as much time as you think. ---
**Author:** ![Cubsfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Cubsfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cubsfan)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1440 "2014-08-19T17:52:52Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > If he was hit on the top of the head, then he was already going down when the cop fired for the last time. It seems to me that after each shot, he could have retreated a bit to see how badly the victim was hurt before deciding that he had to kill him. What is with you man? How many times do you need to be told to step away from the TV and realize that this is real life and not Hollywood? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354.md?page=71) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354.md?page=73)