# Ferguson, MO **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 12, 2014, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354 "2014-08-12T04:51:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 74
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1461 "2014-08-19T18:47:33Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > A “shove” is still assault and battery. Doesn’t the video show the clerk putting hands on Brown first? And if Brown had not, in fact, stolen anything, doesn’t that mean he was entirely within his rights to shove him away? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1462 "2014-08-19T18:49:01Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > Sure. But why limit it to the Ferguson cops? The State cops are terrified too. So are the National Guard, and the Governor who’s giving the orders. > > I agree with you. Everyone is terrified of having another shooting and as a result there have been riots nightly for over a week now. > > It’s cowardice at worst. Political expediency at best. No, it’s probably reasonble fear that more dead black people who cause _worse unrest_. > [@](#): > > How long until the rioting results in a death or two? I’m surprised it hasn’t happened yet. Your surprise is probably irrelevant to the facts of the situation. ---
**Author:** ![Cubsfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Cubsfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cubsfan)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1463 "2014-08-19T18:49:41Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > I back off, see how fast he can move. Maybe run to the other side of the car. If he’s seriously wounded, he won’t keep it up for long. :smack: You need to go on a cross country tour providing specialized BLD conflict training to not only our police forces but also our military because you have got it all figured out. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1464 "2014-08-19T18:52:46Z")
> [@BigAppleBucky](#): > > SIAP - It turns out Brown paid for the cigars he had and neither the store owner nor any store employee had called the cops. > > [No theft reported](http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/08/18/1322560/-Ferguson-Store-Owner-Says-NO-ONE-From-His-Store-Called-Cops-To-Report-Cigar-Theft?detail=facebook) The store owner didn’t report the theft because he is terrified that he will be killed if word gets out that he did that. (Saw this in a linked article a few days ago but coudn’t find it just now.) ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1465 "2014-08-19T18:54:11Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > **Grumman**? If he’s falling, what difference does it make if he’s falling _towards_ you? **If** Brown was charging toward Wilson, then the fact that he’s falling forward looks, from Wilson’s point of view, no different than if he’d been lowering his head for a running tackle. So if you share the assumption about the charging perp, then a shot to the head is not a callous act regardless of whether the attacker is collapsing. If you assume Brown was surrendering, kneeling and ducking his head, then the head shot does _not_ seem justified. That’s why it’s important to keep checking assumptions against the evidence. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1466 "2014-08-19T18:55:38Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > No, it’s probably reasonble fear that more dead black people who cause _worse unrest_. This should read "No, it’s probably reasonble fear that more dead black people **would** cause _worse unrest_. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1467 "2014-08-19T18:56:20Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > The store owner didn’t report the theft because he is terrified that he will be killed if word gets out that he did that. (Saw this in a linked article a few days ago but coudn’t find it just now.) Well I saw that as a baseless speculation in this thread a few days ago. If you can’t find a quote from the store owner, it remains a baseless speculation. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1468 "2014-08-19T19:00:04Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > What you’re saying is that whenever the cop fires his gun he has to completely empty his gun into the victim? Why didn’t he pack a bayonet and turn him over and stab him in the gut a few hundred times when he was done shooting? > > If it was me and I felt the need to shoot, I’d shoot once or twice, take a few steps back and see if he keeps coming. When he stops coming, I stop shooting. The officer shoots until he feels the threat is neutralized. He certainly doesn’t fire, step back, evaluate, fire again, step back, evaluate, etc. That would be insanely dangerous to him under most circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1469 "2014-08-19T19:00:32Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Nevertheless, I appreciate your point that in addition to a right-wing blog, we also have the say-so of the police that this policeman experienced some swelling. The police also stated that he was treated at the hospital. So I believe in case there is a trial there will definitely be medical records. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1470 "2014-08-19T19:00:51Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > Well I saw that as a baseless speculation in this thread a few days ago. If you can’t find a quote from the store owner, it remains a baseless speculation. [Washington Post](http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/in-ferguson-three-minutes--and-two-lives-forever-changed/2014/08/16/f28f5bc0-2588-11e4-8593-da634b334390_story.html) > [@](#): > > The convenience store where the robbery took place was boarded up, but open for business on Friday. A store manager, who declined to give his name, said he fears for his life and pleaded with reporters not to suggest that he called police. > > “It’s very dangerous,” he said. “They kill us if they think we are responsible. People don’t understand that.” Doesn’t specifically say that he didn’t actually call the police for that reason, but one follows from the other. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1471 "2014-08-19T19:02:19Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > What you’re saying is that whenever the cop fires his gun he has to completely empty his gun into the victim? Why didn’t he pack a bayonet and turn him over and stab him in the gut a few hundred times when he was done shooting? > > If it was me and I felt the need to shoot, I’d shoot once or twice, take a few steps back and see if he keeps coming. When he stops coming, I stop shooting. Let me take a guess here: you have never owned a gun, you never had any gun training, you have never served in the military, and your knowledge of gun usage is from the movies. Right? ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1472 "2014-08-19T19:04:03Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > I’m of the belief that there are now armed people at Ferguson who really hate the cops. I’m of the belief that the cops are treading very lightly for some reason and are basically letting the mob riot nightly without too much interference. I’m of the belief that if they actually did go in and try to arrest every person rioting there would likely be some shooting by the rioters. There are armed people in every city, all the time, who really hate the cops. But what you said was that if the police had taken the (by your lights) appropriate measures from the beginning, i.e. had shot at people who were shooting or throwing bombs at them, then the whole mess would have been avoided. If you hadn’t been posting to this thread much more frequently than I had, I would think, based on that, that you didn’t even know generally what had happened in Ferguson. The police shot somebody. There are no riots that could have been avoided in the “beginning” that exist separately from that shooting. Do you think that after just a little passage of time it’s now fair or reasonable or – I don’t know, ingenuous – to say essentially that this whole thing could have been avoided if they’d just rounded them up and shot’em if they didn’t like it? I understand that you don’t particularly connect the dots between the shooting and the riots the same way others might. But, I mean, to the extent you’re willing to concede that maybe at least some of the rioting is an expression of anger toward an institutionalized blind eye toward institutionalized abuses of a particular demographic… to the extent you’re willing to entertain it, if the thing they’re angry about _was_ a real thing, wouldn’t an approach like yours, which writes off the fact that the police killed somebody and claims that the police haven’t been harsh enough “from the beginning” be exactly what that looked like? Like, at the same time that you’re asking the others to concede that the riots must not be about the shooting, because they’re still going on, aren’t you basically exhibiting exactly the attitude that those riots would be about? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1473 "2014-08-19T19:08:36Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > Well I saw that as a baseless speculation in this thread a few days ago. If you can’t find a quote from the store owner, it remains a baseless speculation. [http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/in-ferguson-three-minutes--and-two-lives-forever-changed/2014/08/16/f28f5bc0-2588-11e4-8593-da634b334390\_story.html](http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/in-ferguson-three-minutes--and-two-lives-forever-changed/2014/08/16/f28f5bc0-2588-11e4-8593-da634b334390_story.html) The convenience store where the robbery took place was boarded up, but open for business on Friday. A store manager, who declined to give his name, said he fears for his life and pleaded with reporters not to suggest that he called police. “It’s very dangerous,” he said. “They kill us if they think we are responsible. People don’t understand that.” Is that a good enough quote? ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1474 "2014-08-19T19:10:01Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > [Washington Post](http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/in-ferguson-three-minutes--and-two-lives-forever-changed/2014/08/16/f28f5bc0-2588-11e4-8593-da634b334390_story.html)Doesn’t specifically say that he didn’t actually call the police for that reason, but one follows from the other. Why would you think that comment refers to their decision on the day in question? The owner -after days of rioting- is asking the reporters not to make it seem like he called the police about the incident, a) because he didn’t and more importantly b) because he’s afraid that would make him a target of community hatred. That’s a reasonable fear on Friday, but it says nothing about how he felt on the day of the incident. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1475 "2014-08-19T19:21:28Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > Why would you think that comment refers to their decision on the day in question? I adressed this, as you quoted. What I said was: _“Doesn’t specifically say that he didn’t actually call the police for that reason, but one follows from the other.”_ Meaning that if he was so terrified of being killed if word got out that he reported it, it’s quite likely that he would also refrain from calling them for that reason. Unless your point is that this situation only arose in the aftermath of the killing - the guy’s language doesn’t suggest that, but perhaps his English is not good. But if that’s the case, then maybe he really did call the police and is denying it now for this reason. Or even if he didn’t, it’s possible that he didn’t call them because there was no reason to once someone else did anyway - the main point is that the reason he is distancing himself now from the suggestion that he called them is not because there was no robbery but because he’s afraid of the reaction. More significant than that, the burden of proof is the other way here. Others are trying to prove from the fact that he didn’t call the police that there must therefore have been no robbery. If this guy is so terrified of having it be known that he called the police, then that’s a very plausible reason for him not to have called, and the no-robbery inference therefore falls away. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1476 "2014-08-19T19:21:56Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > But what you said was that if the police had taken the (by your lights) appropriate measures from the beginning, i.e. had shot at people who were shooting or throwing bombs at them, then the whole mess would have been avoided. I think I see why you are confused. You are skipping a step. I’m saying the police, from the beginning, should have moved in and arrested anyone who’s rioting. You must have missed that. Yes, I acknowledge that doing this might result in some of the rioters shooting at the cops or throwing molotov cocktails or something else that results in them getting shot. I understand the hesitation by the police to getting in that situation. However, given that rioting has gone on for over a week with no end in sight I think it’s fair to say that holding back as much as the cops have been was a mistake. Clear? > [@](#): > > I understand that you don’t particularly connect the dots between the shooting and the riots the same way others might. I don’t know why you think this. Of course the riots have resulted from Brown being shot. No one is disputing this. ---
**Author:** ![Cubsfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Cubsfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cubsfan)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1477 "2014-08-19T19:22:44Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > Why would you think that comment refers to their decision on the day in question? The owner -after days of rioting- is asking the reporters not to make it seem like he called the police about the incident, a) because he didn’t and more importantly b) because he’s afraid that would make him a target of community hatred. That’s a reasonable fear on Friday, but it says nothing about how he felt on the day of the incident. How anyone could believe the owners claim that the clerk didn’t call the police is mind boggling to me. So what, the cops just rolled by a random gas station and randomly asked to see the surveillance tapes and then, coincidentally, the guy who was thugging in the surveillance video was also involved in a shooting a few minutes later? I understand the guy is scared, I would be too. He called the cops,there’s no way to put that cat back in the bag, no matter how much he may want to claim otherwise now. He did nothing wrong. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1478 "2014-08-19T19:24:51Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > [Washington Post](http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/in-ferguson-three-minutes--and-two-lives-forever-changed/2014/08/16/f28f5bc0-2588-11e4-8593-da634b334390_story.html)Doesn’t specifically say that he didn’t actually call the police for that reason, but one follows from the other. No, it doesn’t follow from the other. It’s perfectly consistent that the store owner said that and no employee from his store called the police. ---
**Author:** ![chicagowhitesox1173](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/46a35a/32.png) [@chicagowhitesox1173](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chicagowhitesox1173)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1479 "2014-08-19T19:24:55Z")
I think this store owner who was pushed by Michael Brown is probably used to unruly customers. Somebody obviously thought what happened deserved a 911 call though. I don’t think it’s off base to say that most store owners would call the police over this. This particular store owner probably gets harassed daily and is desensitized over this behavior. ---
**Author:** ![Sinaptics](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Sinaptics](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaptics)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1480 "2014-08-19T19:27:13Z")
> [@Cubsfan](#): > > How anyone could believe the owners claim that the clerk didn’t call the police is mind boggling to me. So what, the cops just rolled by a random gas station and randomly asked to see the surveillance tapes and then, coincidentally, the guy who was thugging in the surveillance video was also involved in a shooting a few minutes later? > > I understand the guy is scared, I would be too. He called the cops,there’s no way to put that cat back in the bag, no matter how much he may want to claim otherwise now. He did nothing wrong. I’m fairly sure it’s been reported that another customer phoned it into the police. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354.md?page=73) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354.md?page=75)