# Ferguson, MO **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 12, 2014, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354 "2014-08-12T04:51:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 75
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1481 "2014-08-19T19:27:17Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Let me take a guess here: you have never owned a gun, you never had any gun training, you have never served in the military, and your knowledge of gun usage is from the movies. Right? I resent that! I watch television shows, too! Nope, never owned a gun. Never picked one up in my life. Never will. Never had gun training. Never served in the military, thank goodness. But if I was a cop, I wouldn’t have shot to kill. With every shot, my probability of getting killed or injured is reduced and the other guy’s chance of death increases. There comes a point where I should assume some risk of injury in order not to kill somebody. ---
**Author:** ![Cubsfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Cubsfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cubsfan)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1482 "2014-08-19T19:29:12Z")
> [@Sinaptics](#): > > I’m fairly sure it’s been reported that another customer phoned it into the police. Really? Ok, my bad if that’s true. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1483 "2014-08-19T19:33:46Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > I resent that! I watch television shows, too! > > Nope, never owned a gun. Never picked one up in my life. Never will. Never had gun training. Never served in the military, thank goodness. > > But if I was a cop, I wouldn’t have shot to kill. With every shot, my probability of getting killed or injured is reduced and the other guy’s chance of death increases. There comes a point where I should assume some risk of injury in order not to kill somebody. Perhaps you should read this [article.](http://www2.fbi.gov/publications/leb/1998/febleb.pdf) It’s published by the FBI. It explains what happens with respect to stress, psychological changes, etc. when a law enforcement officer is faced with the need to use lethal force. I think this may shed some light to your armchair reflections of the events required when an officer pulls his weapon. If you don’t read this, then you’ll never understand how far off base you are here. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1484 "2014-08-19T19:34:43Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > I resent that! I watch television shows, too! > > Nope, never owned a gun. Never picked one up in my life. Never will. Never had gun training. Never served in the military, thank goodness. Figures. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1485 "2014-08-19T19:35:27Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > I resent that! I watch television shows, too! > > Nope, never owned a gun. Never picked one up in my life. Never will. Never had gun training. Never served in the military, thank goodness. > > But if I was a cop, I wouldn’t have shot to kill. With every shot, my probability of getting killed or injured is reduced and the other guy’s chance of death increases. There comes a point where I should assume some risk of injury in order not to kill somebody. So you admit to being completely ignorant on the subject, yet you insist that you know what’s best? Do you do this with other topics? Do you go tell pilots how they should be landing the plane even though you’ve never flown one? Do you tell doctors how they should perform surgery even though you never went to medical school? ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1486 "2014-08-19T19:36:42Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > …As far as the gunpowder residue goes, I don’t know where you got the information that the 2nd autopsy didn’t look for it. Dr. Baden states at about 21:35 through 22:00 on the video that there was “no gunshot residues on the skin surface” but “in order to be firm about” the distance from which the shots were fired, they’d need access to the clothing, which they did not have. My mistake. I should have given a more detailed description. At 21:20, he begins discussing the possibility of determining the distance from shooter to target. GSR stippling (gun powder, lead, copper particles) around a gunshot entrance wound can be visible to the naked eye, assuming the shot was fired within, I believe, 24 inches (or something close to that). Visible particles would have been imbedded into the skin. Microscopic GSR particles can travel some 5 feet and has to be tested for beginning with a Modified Griess Test. > **[Gunshot Residue Examinations - FirearmsID.com](https://www.firearmsid.com/A_distanceExams.htm)** > > Forensic Firearms Identification is a discipline of Forensic Science that has as a primary concern to identify fired ammunition components as having been fired from a specific firearm. The examiners did visually look for stippling but did not mention any doing any further testing themselves. That should have been done during the 1st autopsy. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1487 "2014-08-19T19:37:54Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Meaning that if he was so terrified of being killed if word got out that he reported it, it’s quite likely that he would also refrain from calling them for that reason. > > Unless your point is that this situation only arose in the aftermath of the killing - the guy’s language doesn’t suggest that, but perhaps his English is not good. His use of the present tense and the date of the interview suggests it. Are _you_ suggesting that store owners in Ferguson only call the police after robberies if they were done by whites? 'Cause I’m pretty sure that’s not the case. > [@](#): > > More significant than that, the burden of proof is the other way here. Others are trying to prove from the fact that he didn’t call the police that there must therefore have been no robbery. If this guy is so terrified of having it be known that he called the police, then that’s a very plausible reason for him not to have called, and the no-robbery inference therefore falls away. You’re twisting yourself in knots here, almost as if you very much want there to have been a robbery. There’s no reason to think he didn’t call the police at the time (a fact which is not seriously in question) because of _subsequent_ events. If he was going to report a robbery, he’d have done it right after it happened like every other convenience store owner on the planet would have. Unless you’re proposing the store owner is a precognitive clairvoyant, his fear on Friday is no way reflective on his actions at the time of the incident. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1488 "2014-08-19T19:43:37Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > I think I see why you are confused. You are skipping a step. I’m saying the police, from the beginning, should have moved in and arrested anyone who’s rioting. > > You must have missed that. No. I am adding a step. The one with the shooting. I’m not confused. You quoted two sentences. > [@](#): > > I don’t know why you think this. Of course the riots have resulted from Brown being shot. No one is disputing this. No one is disputing it factually. You’ve already discounted it as having any relevance to the conversation, though. The police are treading lightly “for some reason,” and now, since it’s a week later and the riots aren’t over, well, turns out the cops should have just been rounding up people and shooting them if necessary from “the beginning.” You’ve got it all figured out… except, you know, the bit the riots were about, which hasn’t changed and which you are now _advocating;_ i.e. the approach that says fuck them, they can die if they don’t want to comply the way I want them to comply. By not giving any credence to what the riots are actually about, you’ve basically embodied what the riots are about. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1489 "2014-08-19T19:45:09Z")
Look, it’s simple: because they didn’t immediately kill all the black people, now they have no choice but to kill all the black people. ---
**Author:** ![Cubsfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Cubsfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cubsfan)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1490 "2014-08-19T19:47:17Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > Look, it’s simple: because they didn’t immediately kill all the black people, now they have no choice but to kill all the black people. > [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > Can you believe those negro savages? We get it, you say witty ironic things. Or something like that. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1491 "2014-08-19T19:50:21Z")
> [@Cubsfan](#): > > We get it, you say witty ironic things. Or something like that. And here I thought he was just lost in the wrong forum. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1492 "2014-08-19T19:51:02Z")
Nah, I just see the people of Ferguson as fellow Americans and human beings. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1493 "2014-08-19T19:51:23Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > His use of the present tense and the date of the interview suggests it. I would say the opposite, that the term “they kill us if …” suggests an ongoing issue, not a one time situation (which would be “they would kill us if …”). Although I’ve acknowleged that it might be imperfect English. > [@](#): > > Are _you_ suggesting that store owners in Ferguson only call the police after robberies if they were done by whites? 'Cause I’m pretty sure that’s not the case. I don’t know. Might depend on how much is at stake and how likely it is that the guy is a gang member, or whatever. > [@](#): > > You’re twisting yourself in knots here, almost as if you very much want there to have been a robbery. > > There’s no reason to think he didn’t call the police at the time (a fact which is not seriously in question) because of _subsequent_ events. If he was going to report a robbery, he’d have done it right after it happened like every other convenience store owner on the planet would have. Unless you’re proposing the store owner is a precognitive clairvoyant, his fear on Friday is no way reflective on his actions at the time of the incident. You’re twisting my words into knots here, almost as if you very much want me to have said something you can refute. I’m not suggesting that he didn’t call the police because he was clairvoyant. I’m saying that as long as it’s plausible that he didn’t call the police out of fear, then you can’t infer from his not calling that there must have been no robbery. (Which is besides for the other point that someone else had called anyway so he didn’t have to at the time, and the storeowner’s current emphasis on the fact that he didn’t call is out of fear.) ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1494 "2014-08-19T19:52:34Z")
> [@BigAppleBucky](#): > > SIAP - It turns out Brown paid for the cigars he had and neither the store owner nor any store employee had called the cops. > > [No theft reported](http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/08/18/1322560/-Ferguson-Store-Owner-Says-NO-ONE-From-His-Store-Called-Cops-To-Report-Cigar-Theft?detail=facebook) I do not see where Brown actually paid for the cigars, in that video. Why did Dorian Johnson’s lawyer admit last week that his client and Brown had stolen the cigars? The police were notified that a robbery had taken place. A customer could have called the police or the owner/clerk did and doesn’t the mob of protesters to know that the call came from him or his employees. \*Friday on MSNBC, host Alex Witt confirmed that the attorney for Michael Brown’s friend Dorian Johnson, Freeman Bosley said, **“My client did tell us and told the FBI they went into the store. He told the FBI he did take the cigarettes.”** The Ferguson Police Department released a report and photos Friday morning detailing a convenance store robbery of cigarillo’s shortly before Brown was fatal shot last Saturday. Witt said, “I just got off the phone with Freeman Bossily, an attorney for the witness that was with Michael Brown when he was killed. He admitted he said he told federal officials and county officials that Michael Brown did, indeed, take a pack of mini cigars.”\* [http://www.onenewspage.com/n/US/750l0bgfn/Lawyer-Confirms-Brown-Took-Cigars-From-Store.htm](http://www.onenewspage.com/n/US/750l0bgfn/Lawyer-Confirms-Brown-Took-Cigars-From-Store.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Sinaptics](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Sinaptics](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaptics)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1495 "2014-08-19T19:59:15Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > I do not see where Brown actually paid for the cigars, in that video. Why did Dorian Johnson’s lawyer admit last week that his client and Brown had stolen the cigars? > > The police were notified that a robbery had taken place. A customer could have called the police or the owner/clerk did and doesn’t the mob of protesters to know that the call came from him or his employees. > > \*Friday on MSNBC, host Alex Witt confirmed that the attorney for Michael Brown’s friend Dorian Johnson, Freeman Bosley said, **“My client did tell us and told the FBI they went into the store. He told the FBI he did take the cigarettes.”** > > The Ferguson Police Department released a report and photos Friday morning detailing a convenance store robbery of cigarillo’s shortly before Brown was fatal shot last Saturday. > > Witt said, “I just got off the phone with Freeman Bossily, an attorney for the witness that was with Michael Brown when he was killed. He admitted he said he told federal officials and county officials that Michael Brown did, indeed, take a pack of mini cigars.”\* > > [http://www.onenewspage.com/n/US/750l0bgfn/Lawyer-Confirms-Brown-Took-Cigars-From-Store.htm](http://www.onenewspage.com/n/US/750l0bgfn/Lawyer-Confirms-Brown-Took-Cigars-From-Store.htm) All of this is immaterial. All it did was set the stage for the confrontation. Right before Brown went into the store he could have been kicking around kittens and sucker punching babies and it still wouldn’t have a bearing on the subsequent events. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1496 "2014-08-19T20:01:26Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > So you admit to being completely ignorant on the subject, yet you insist that you know what’s best? > > Do you do this with other topics? Do you go tell pilots how they should be landing the plane even though you’ve never flown one? Do you tell doctors how they should perform surgery even though you never went to medical school? Yep. I know what’s best, and if I was that cop, the boy wouldn’t have died. Pilots and doctors don’t wield instruments of death and aren’t in general assholes so I don’t armchair quarterback them. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1497 "2014-08-19T20:02:42Z")
> [@Sinaptics](#): > > All of this is immaterial. All it did was set the stage for the confrontation. Right before Brown went into the store he could have been kicking around kittens and sucker punching babies and it still wouldn’t have a bearing on the subsequent events. Michael Brown kicks KITTENS!?!?!?!? That bastard! ---
**Author:** ![Sinaptics](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Sinaptics](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaptics)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1498 "2014-08-19T20:04:25Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Michael Brown kicks KITTENS!?!?!?!? That bastard! I was actually wondering if you could sucker punch a baby. I mean, are they ever ready for it? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1499 "2014-08-19T20:08:44Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Yep. I know what’s best, and if I was that cop, the boy wouldn’t have died. > > … But you may well have when all 6’4", 300 pounds of a pissed off dude got his hands around your neck. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1500 "2014-08-19T20:10:47Z")
> [@Sinaptics](#): > > I was actually wondering if you could sucker punch a baby. I mean, are they ever ready for it? 🙂 You could peek-a-boo them and strike while you’re hidden. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354.md?page=74) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354.md?page=76)