# Ferguson, MO **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 12, 2014, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354 "2014-08-12T04:51:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 76
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1501 "2014-08-19T20:13:46Z")
> [@Sinaptics](#): > > All of this is immaterial. All it did was set the stage for the confrontation. Right before Brown went into the store he could have been kicking around kittens and sucker punching babies and it still wouldn’t have a bearing on the subsequent events. There are two mutually exclusive views of what happened. The type of person that Brown (or this cop) was has an effect on which version of those events I believe. I don’t think that’s irrational. I think that the kind of person who would knock around a convenience store owner (or kick kittens while sucker punching babies) to steal cigars is more likely the kind of person who would attack a cop than the kind of person who doesn’t do those things. If tomorrow a trove of online rantings about black teens written by this cop comes out, it would definitely color the way I view his version as well. ---
**Author:** ![Sinaptics](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Sinaptics](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaptics)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1502 "2014-08-19T20:17:46Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > There are two mutually exclusive views of what happened. The type of person that Brown (or this cop) was has an effect on which version of those events I believe. I don’t think that’s irrational. I think that the kind of person who would knock around a convenience store owner (or kick kittens while sucker punching babies) to steal cigars is more likely the kind of person who would attack a cop than the kind of person who doesn’t do those things. > > If tomorrow a trove of online rantings about black teens written by this cop comes out, it would definitely color the way I view his version as well. Too much conflicting info to draw a conclusion at this point. I can see it playing out either way. We need some real forensic evidence to chew over. Unfortunately, the police seem to be holding their cards very close. We’re not even getting reports from “unnamed sources.” I commend them on their ability to control leaks. ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1503 "2014-08-19T20:21:04Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > \ > No one is disputing it factually. You’ve already discounted it as having any relevance to the conversation, though. The police are treading lightly “for some reason,” and now, since it’s a week later and the riots aren’t over, well, turns out the cops should have just been rounding up people and shooting them if necessary from “the beginning.” You’ve got it all figured out… except, you know, the bit the riots were about, which hasn’t changed and which you are now _advocating;_ i.e. the approach that says fuck them, they can die if they don’t want to comply the way I want them to comply. By not giving any credence to what the riots are actually about, you’ve basically embodied what the riots are about. This. **Debaser** , perhaps the reason the police haven’t just shot multiple additional citizens is that, you know, the disobedient miscreants are humans. Even if they’re pissed off in the wake of one citizen having already been shot, and aren’t being all too subservient to police commands. They’re still people, and they have certain rights that aren’t cancelled or surrendered _even if they act unlawfully_. As an old hippie who actually participated in some street level urban – err, altercations, yeah, that’s the word! altercations! – I can say with some sensitivity that I’m glad civil disobedience isn’t a capital crime. At least, until you get what seems to be your wish, anyway. You say “riot” and I say “demonstration”… Which more correctly describes the actions seen in that community these past several nights? ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1504 "2014-08-19T20:22:28Z")
> [@Sinaptics](#): > > Too much conflicting info to draw a conclusion at this point. I can see it playing out either way. We need some real forensic evidence to chew over. Unfortunately, the police seem to be holding their cards very close. We’re not even getting reports from “unnamed sources.” I commend them on their ability to control leaks. Absolutely agreed. I could be swayed either way based on the evidence. But, I’m concerned that there is no amount of evidence in either direction that is going to satisfy the side that is incorrect. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1505 "2014-08-19T20:25:20Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I’m not suggesting that he didn’t call the police because he was clairvoyant. I’m saying that as long as it’s plausible that he didn’t call the police out of fear, then you can’t infer from his not calling that there must have been no robbery. (Which is besides for the other point that someone else had called anyway so he didn’t have to at the time, and the storeowner’s current emphasis on the fact that he didn’t call is out of fear.) If you’d limited your argument to that, I’d have had very little argument. Your original statement to which I responded was that “The store owner didn’t report the theft because he is terrified that he will be killed if word gets out that he did that.” That’s a much stronger assertion than “you can’t infer there was no robbery.” All we know from the video is that there was an altercation between the clerk and Michael Brown. We also know that the store did not make a 911 call. And we have the subsequent interview done days after the incident, after looting and rioting, in which the owner begs the media not to suggest he sicced the police on Brown. That doesn’t add up to the owner fearing reprisals in pre-riotous Ferguson. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1506 "2014-08-19T20:26:02Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > There are two mutually exclusive views of what happened. The type of person that Brown (or this cop) was has an effect on which version of those events I believe. I don’t think that’s irrational. I think that the kind of person who would knock around a convenience store owner (or kick kittens while sucker punching babies) to steal cigars is more likely the kind of person who would attack a cop than the kind of person who doesn’t do those things. In addition, the cop, at the time of shooting, suspected Brown of participating in that 10-minute-old robbery. Which definitely influences events. ---
**Author:** ![Sinaptics](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Sinaptics](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaptics)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1507 "2014-08-19T20:26:10Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > Absolutely agreed. I could be swayed either way based on the evidence. But, I’m concerned that there is no amount of evidence in either direction that is going to satisfy the side that is incorrect. Reminds me of an old conversation with my wife: Her: This is how I feel. Me: But it’s incorrect because XYZ. Her: But it’s how I FEEL! The community feels downtrodden and it’s going to take some time to rebuild that trust no matter what the verdict. ---
**Author:** ![Sinaptics](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Sinaptics](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaptics)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1508 "2014-08-19T20:28:02Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > In addition, the cop, at the time of shooting, suspected Brown of participating in that 10-minute-old robbery. Which definitely influences events. Perhaps. It could also be an after-the-fact justification. We have no real way of knowing this either. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1509 "2014-08-19T20:48:59Z")
> [@Cubsfan](#): > > Fuck you dude. [Moderating] Saying “fuck you” to other posters is a violation of the pits language rules. Please avoid this in the future. No warning issued. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1510 "2014-08-19T20:59:45Z")
Got some “wheres?” here. Where’s the cigars? Evidence, yes? Even somewhat more important to the narrative that has the officer becoming suspicious because Brown has the cigars. Didn’t smoke 'em all in ten minutes. So, where are they? They would corroborate the story they would have us accept, so why not produce them? Even better with Brown’s fingerprints all over them! (Maybe not if there’s blood, that leads to the wrong image, like somebody getting killed over some cheap fucking cigars! That would be bad…) Where’s the car? Which, presumably, may have the bullet that was fired in the car. Wouldn’t the car be evidence? Did somebody just get in and take it back to the motor pool? Where’s the report from the scene? You know, the one where the body is here, the car is there, they are X number of feet apart, here is shell casing number one, here is number two, so on and so forth. Nothing like that? The Ferguson police leak like a firehose when it comes to stuff that might make them look better. Might we not fairly assume that if something is withheld, its because its _not_ likely to make them look better. And, of course, where’s the first autopsy report? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1511 "2014-08-19T21:09:38Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Got some “wheres?” here. Where’s the cigars? Evidence, yes? Even somewhat more important to the narrative that has the officer becoming suspicious because Brown has the cigars. Didn’t smoke 'em all in ten minutes. So, where are they? They would corroborate the story they would have us accept, so why not produce them? Even better with Brown’s fingerprints all over them! [http://www.wjla.com/articles/2014/08/ferguson-police-shooter-s-name-revealed-106115.html](http://www.wjla.com/articles/2014/08/ferguson-police-shooter-s-name-revealed-106115.html) Police said they found evidence of the stolen merchandise on Brown’s body. You want pictures of the cigars? Or the cigars themselves? When the investigation ends, if there is a trial, I am sure you will see them. If there isn’t, you won’t. But when the investigation ends, the police reports will become public, and you can see where the cigars found on the body are mentioned. The same with the rest of it. It is an ongoing investigation. Those records are not yet public. I think the coroner who did the first autopsy spoke to the press, but the report is not public. ---
**Author:** ![JesterX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/439d5e/32.png) [@JesterX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JesterX)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1512 "2014-08-19T21:16:59Z")
My main issue here is that whenever these incidents happen, everybody falls to their respective “side”. Very little objective processing of information. It’s all parsed and spun to best represent one’s side. The video of the robbery is released, the pro Mike Brown side says “that’s got nothing to do with it”. The pro Darren Wilson side says “justified shooting, case closed”. NEITHER of those are true. Same goes for the autopsy report. Very little obvious conclusions can be drawn from it. Yet both sides act like it back them up completely. People are emotional nuts ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1513 "2014-08-19T21:34:17Z")
Oh, here we go again… _(CNN) – St. Louis police shot and killed a young African-American man Tuesday after authorities say he brandished a knife. The shooting took place not far from Ferguson, Missouri, where the shooting death of black teenager Michael Brown by a white police officer has touched off violent protests._ > **[Man shot and killed by St. Louis Police | CNN](https://www.cnn.com/2014/08/19/us/missouri-police-shooting/index.html?hpt=hp_t2)** > > St. Louis police shot and killed a young African-American man Tuesday after authorities say he brandished a knife. I wonder how this will play out. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1514 "2014-08-19T21:41:51Z")
Interesting info on dashboard cams etc. [http://www.cops.usdoj.gov/Publications/video\_evidence.pdf](http://www.cops.usdoj.gov/Publications/video_evidence.pdf) The survey specifically asked line officers about complaints filed against them and the use of the recording to adjudicate the complaints. The majority of officers reported that the camera ultimately cleared them of accusations of wrongdoing; very few reported that the camera sustained a complaint filed against them. According to the responses of the over 3,000 officers who completed the surveys, in only 5% of the cases were complaints sustained based on video evidence captured by the in-car cameras. And the fun part: In at least half of the instances, once the complainant is made aware that the stop or contact was recorded, the complaint was withdrawn. ---
**Author:** ![Renee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/renee/32/287_2.png) [@Renee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renee)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1515 "2014-08-19T21:44:26Z")
I think we can all agree about one thing in this mess: EVERY police car should have dash cams. I can’t really understand why they don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1516 "2014-08-19T21:51:03Z")
> [@Renee](#): > > I think we can all agree about one thing in this mess: EVERY police car should have dash cams. I can’t really understand why they don’t. I solidly agree with this. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1517 "2014-08-19T21:56:56Z")
Hard to disagree, however---- dash cams typically point forward, don’t they? Not sure how much value they would add when the action is (allegedly) happening outside the driver’s side door. ---
**Author:** ![chicagowhitesox1173](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/46a35a/32.png) [@chicagowhitesox1173](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chicagowhitesox1173)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1518 "2014-08-19T21:58:56Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > Oh, here we go again… > _(CNN) – St. Louis police shot and killed a young African-American man Tuesday after authorities say he brandished a knife. > The shooting took place not far from Ferguson, Missouri, where the shooting death of black teenager Michael Brown by a white police officer has touched off violent protests._ > > [http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/19/us/missouri-police-shooting/index.html?hpt=hp\_t2](http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/19/us/missouri-police-shooting/index.html?hpt=hp_t2) > > I wonder how this will play out. I think these cops need to start using tasers. I don’t want to blame the police for this but you gotta wonder if there will be more young black kids who want to become martyrs like Trayvon Martin and Michael Brown. ---
**Author:** ![Renee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/renee/32/287_2.png) [@Renee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renee)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1519 "2014-08-19T22:02:38Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > Hard to disagree, however---- dash cams typically point forward, don’t they? Not sure how much value they would add when the action is (allegedly) happening outside the driver’s side door. I’m guessing a multi-view camera set-up would be entirely possible. Seems like it would save a lot of money and hassle in the long run. ---
**Author:** ![GrandWino](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grandwino/32/67_2.png) [@GrandWino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrandWino)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1520 "2014-08-19T22:04:09Z")
> [@chicagowhitesox1173](#): > > I think these cops need to start using tasers. I don’t want to blame the police for this but you gotta wonder if there will be more young black kids who want to become martyrs like Trayvon Martin and Michael Brown. I don’t think this guy was trying to be a martyr, sounds more like a run of the mill suicide by cop situation. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354.md?page=75) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354.md?page=77)