# Ferguson, MO **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 12, 2014, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354 "2014-08-12T04:51:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 80
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 10:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1581 "2014-08-20T10:19:55Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > In my experiences with direct physical danger, I have limited my responses to wetting myself and crying like a little bitch. > [@Lobohan](#): > > Ah, the Nugent maneuver. He got all of that one! ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1582 "2014-08-20T11:15:37Z")
> [@chicagowhitesox1173](#): > > Shooting somebody that many times makes no sense to me. That’s because you have no clue what you’re talking about. A pistol wound is not always lethal, and even a lethal pistol wound is not always _immediately_ lethal. Expecting one pistol bullet to take down a guy built like a linebacker is ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1583 "2014-08-20T11:33:19Z")
> [@JesterX](#): > > Just speculation but I think most, if not ALL of the wounds on Brown’s right arm are defensive wounds from him trying to block the shots. Which is why they say there were AT LEAST 6 shots even though there are 8 wounds on his body (from the autopsy photos). That looks like an execution to me. Anyone holding up his arm to block oncoming shots is not going to be charging at the shooter. Hold your arms up, as if to block shots. What surfaces of your arms are facing forward? Aren’t your palms turned toward you? Now look at the diagram from the autopsy. Those wounds are not from holding arms up to block shots. They are, however, consistent with arms raised as in the classic, “I surrender,” pose. In that pose, the hands are level with the head and the palms face outward, open, exposing the undersides of the lower arm. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1584 "2014-08-20T11:35:11Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Hold your arms up, as if to block shots. > > What surfaces of your arms are facing forward? > > Aren’t your palms turned toward you? No. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1585 "2014-08-20T12:02:50Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Hold your arms up, as if to block shots. > > What surfaces of your arms are facing forward? > > Aren’t your palms turned toward you? > > Now look at the diagram from the autopsy. > > Those wounds are not from holding arms up to block shots. They are, however, consistent with arms raised as in the classic, “I surrender,” pose. In that pose, the hands are level with the head and the palms face outward, open, exposing the undersides of the lower arm. Are you a nineteenth century boxer? Tip top, old chap! I block things with my palms to the enemy. So I can grab them if it comes up. But that said, a moving person in a chaotic scene isn’t something that you can necessarily extrapolate definite positions from. Personally, I’ll wait for the investigation. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1586 "2014-08-20T12:17:52Z")
> [@CannyDan](#): > > You say “riot” and I say “demonstration”… Which more correctly describes the actions seen in that community these past several nights? Riot. Do you seriously dispute this? I’ve posted multiple cites that there have been peaceful demonstrations in some instances, and those were not met with overwhelming police force. There’s nothing wrong with demonstrations. It’s when the rioting starts that I’m saying the police should move in and start arresting people. Otherwise you get what we have now: Days or rioting turning into weeks. Yes, some people might end up getting shot using this approach. It’s worth it. ---
**Author:** ![not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_what_you_d_expect/32/3246_2.png) [@not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_what_you_d_expect)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1587 "2014-08-20T12:24:40Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Bogus. Covered by _Talking Points Memo_, here… > > [Missouri Cop Investigated For Offensive Ferguson Facebook Post - TPM – Talking Points Memo](http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/marc-catron-ferguson-michael-brown-facebook) Thanks, I thought that might be the case. ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1588 "2014-08-20T12:32:02Z")
> [@chicagowhitesox1173](#): > > I’m actually starting to wonder if Brown first ran but after being shot, he may have turned around to defend himself. Shooting somebody that many times makes no sense to me. The phone call by the woman named Josie raises a lot of red flags too. > > That story about Fergusan cops charging a man for bleeding on a officers uniform after being beat up by them says a lot about them too. > > I 've been watching this all day on CNN and it almost seems like CNN and the media is hoping for riots so they can keep this coverage running. The media is running after people if they look like they might cause trouble. And in the “no news” section, **Cubsfan** and **chicagowhitesox1173** are on opposite sides of an issue. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1589 "2014-08-20T12:33:38Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Well, how far away was Brown when the officer opened fire? Got any idea? Was he running or standing, in pursuit or holding his ground? Where was Brown standing when he was first hit, compared to where he was standing when he was killed? Makes a lot of difference, don’t you think? How many shell casings from the officers pistol? Which is to say, how many times did he fire? > > if there is blood on the pavement thirty feet away, and more twenty five feet away, and the body is twenty feet away, he was moving towards the officer. Duh. And conversely, conversely. But if the blood is all in one place, then he was shot where he stood. > > And the car? A bullet in the car, a spent shell casing in the car? Kinda important, don’t you think? > > If the evidence exists that totally corroborates the officer’s story, wouldn’t that go along way to resolving the problem? And the police insist that his story is true, so, therefore, the hard evidence would reflect that, yes? > > Well, then, release the exonerating evidence, what’s the problem? i think maybe I know what the problem is, pretty sure you could guess if you get a couple of free tries. Because the case is to be heard in front of a Grand Jury not in the press. Is that really so hard to understand? At this time no one is insisting that the officer’s story is true. We have not seen the investigation reports. Nor should we until it goes in front of a Grand Jury. It’s ridiculous to think that there was no crime scene investigation just because you didn’t see it on any youtube clips. > [@JesterX](#): > > I tend to agree with elucidator. The reason for releasing the robbery video was to cast aspersions on Brown and make Wilson look better. For me, it worked to some extent, as it showed that Mike Brown was no “gentle giant” and very well could have (even likely) attacked Wilson first. Yet it would seem that mentality would follow with other exonerating evidence for Officer Wilson. Missouri has one of the strongest (and earliest passed) freedom of information laws. It’s written into the state constitution. Since the investigation into the robbery was concluded the police department had 3 business days in which they were required by law to respond to the request for records. Regardless of how it makes anyone look. But for an ongoing investigation they are not required to release each little piece as it comes in. At the conclusion they will be required to release it all. Until [this](http://nypost.com/2014/08/19/cop-involved-in-ferguson-shooting-has-fractured-eye-socket-report/) comes from a better source I put it in the rumor category but it will be interesting to see if it changes how this is looked at. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1590 "2014-08-20T12:51:04Z")
> [@chicagowhitesox1173](#): > > I think these cops need to start using tasers. I don’t want to blame the police for this but you gotta wonder if there will be more young black kids who want to become martyrs like Trayvon Martin and Michael Brown. Tasers are to subdue someone who is non-compliant. Guns are used to stop someone who is an immediate threat to kill or do serious bodily injury. You come at me with I knife I am not pulling out a taser. You only get one shot. They are hard to use against moving targets. Even if you do hit the taser probes may get caught in clothes. The report I saw about the shooting in St Louis said they gave the guy ample opportunity to drop the knife and give up. He was shot when he got within 4 feet. That is well within the danger zone. People have a very Hollywood idea of what it’s like to deal with violent people. Most expect cops to all be ninjas. ---
**Author:** ![JesterX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/439d5e/32.png) [@JesterX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JesterX)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1591 "2014-08-20T13:07:50Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > Missouri has one of the strongest (and earliest passed) freedom of information laws. It’s written into the state constitution. Since the investigation into the robbery was concluded the police department had 3 business days in which they were required by law to respond to the request for records. Regardless of how it makes anyone look. But for an ongoing investigation they are not required to release each little piece as it comes in. At the conclusion they will be required to release it all. > > Until [this](http://nypost.com/2014/08/19/cop-involved-in-ferguson-shooting-has-fractured-eye-socket-report/) comes from a better source I put it in the rumor category but it will be interesting to see if it changes how this is looked at. I don’t see how that report would change anything. It’s believable that Brown punched Wilson in the face. Once you get past that, the extent of Wilson’s injury from the punch doesn’t matter. It actually supports what I think happened. That Wilson executed Brown because he was pissed off. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1592 "2014-08-20T13:16:04Z")
> [@JesterX](#): > > I don’t see how that report would change anything. It’s believable that Brown punched Wilson in the face. Once you get past that, the extent of Wilson’s injury from the punch doesn’t matter. It actually supports what I think happened. That Wilson executed Brown because he was pissed off. Or that this much larger man already caused serious bodily injury and was heading back to do more. That is unclear. Although obviously many including you have already made your conclusion. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1593 "2014-08-20T13:19:44Z")
> [@JesterX](#): > > I don’t see how that report would change anything. It’s believable that Brown punched Wilson in the face. Once you get past that, the extent of Wilson’s injury from the punch doesn’t matter. It actually supports what I think happened. That Wilson executed Brown because he was pissed off. To me, it makes 2 differences. First, it makes the Wilson story, that Brown charged at him, more believable. If a guy socked a cop in the face a few seconds before, it’s very believable that he may have come back for seconds. But beyond that, it makes the story less of a tragedy (on an individual level), IMO, even if your theory is true. Gentle Giant walking down the street executed for being black - huge tragedy. Thug punches cop in the face and gets executed in revenge - no big deal. So I think it changes things. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1594 "2014-08-20T13:24:00Z")
Revenge execution - no big deal. I just wanted to see what it looked like when I typed it. ---
**Author:** ![JesterX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/439d5e/32.png) [@JesterX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JesterX)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1595 "2014-08-20T13:24:26Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > Or that this much larger man already caused serious bodily injury and was heading back to do more. That is unclear. Although obviously many including you have already made your conclusion. Well actually, Brown really wasn’t “much larger” than Wilson. Wilson is a tall guy, as well. Maybe Brown was a little bulkier, but he wouldn’t have been as intimidating to Wilson as he was to that clerk in the store. Like I said, it makes no sense that Brown would run from the gun, then turn and run toward the gun. And again, those wounds on his arm look defensive like he was trying to block the shots. It seems like one would either charge or try to block oncoming shots - not both. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1596 "2014-08-20T13:27:39Z")
> [@BigAppleBucky](#): > > Only he did not steel the cigars. He paid. Watch the video. Gosh, who should I believe? You or my lying eyes? Brown’s accomplice has already admitted that they stole the cigars and the cigars were found at the scene of the shooting. The dailykos is publishing lies. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1597 "2014-08-20T13:28:05Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Those wounds are not from holding arms up to block shots. They are, however, consistent with arms raised as in the classic, “I surrender,” pose. In that pose, the hands are level with the head and the palms face outward, open, exposing the undersides of the lower arm. The problem being that they’re also consistent with a lot of temporary positions arms would be held in while running away from, running toward threateningly, cowering in the **elucidator** /Nugent maneuver or looming in the “Hulk smash” style. The wound placement on the diagram does raise a bunch of questions, and it’ll be interesting to see if there’s a consensus scenario that comes out, or competing ones from the various entities investigating. I just don’t think it’s significant which particular static body postures the wounds are consistent with though. ETA: Not “significant” in a dispositive way, I mean. Of course it’s significant to the extent the possible positions eliminate the impossible ones… ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1598 "2014-08-20T13:28:09Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > … > > Those wounds are not from holding arms up to block shots. They are, however, consistent with arms raised as in the classic, “I surrender,” pose. In that pose, the hands are level with the head and the palms face outward, open, exposing the undersides of the lower arm. Consistent with a very large man attacking a smaller one too. ---
**Author:** ![JesterX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/439d5e/32.png) [@JesterX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JesterX)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1599 "2014-08-20T13:29:48Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Thug punches cop in the face and gets executed in revenge - no big deal. > > So I think it changes things. Except it IS a big deal. It’s still murder, or at the very least, manslaughter. Cops, or anyone else for that matter, are not allowed to execute people out of revenge. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1600 "2014-08-20T13:36:16Z")
> [@JesterX](#): > > It’s still murder, or at the very least, manslaughter. Cops, or anyone else for that matter, are not allowed to execute people out of revenge. Oh, I agree with that. He should obviously be prosecuted if he executed him out of revenge. And in a broader sense, it’s a bigger deal if cops kill people out of revenge than if civilians do it, because cops are given authority over people and guns to enforce it with, so it’s of paramount importance that they be held responsible for their use. But on an individual level, it’s not a big tragedy. Meaning, that the death of a cop-puncher due to his cop-punching is not a big loss, if any at all. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354.md?page=79) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354.md?page=81)