# Ferguson, MO **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 12, 2014, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354 "2014-08-12T04:51:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 83
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1641 "2014-08-20T16:22:52Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Would a lawyer advise a client to admit being a potential accomplice to a crime in order to bolster his credibility about another case in which he is purely a witness and not at risk? I wouldn’t think so. I assume he either did so over his lawyer’s objection or they gave him some immunity. > [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > By the time that info came out, the situation in general was past the point where Johnson might be prosecuted as an accomplice for stealing cigars. Why? ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1642 "2014-08-20T16:30:30Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Why? Because they have their hands full with this case as it is, and risking further inflaming a lot of already-agitated people by prosecuting someone for being an accomplice to a $50 theft would be extremely counterproductive. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1643 "2014-08-20T16:35:38Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Because they have their hands full with this case as it is, and risking further inflaming a lot of already-agitated people by prosecuting someone for being an accomplice to a $50 theft would be extremely counterproductive. They already stated that they wouldn’t prosecute Johnson. He didn’t take the cigars, the cigars Brown handed to him he put back on the counter, and he left the store before Brown. There is really no crime there. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1644 "2014-08-20T16:35:40Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Why? Because the cops have bigger fish to fry - both the rioters who are much more violent and stealing much more than Johnson did, and the accusations being thrown against one of their own. Maybe they thought letting that $50 theft slide was worth the price to avoid being seen as using the threat of criminal action to coerce a witness? ---
**Author:** ![chicagowhitesox1173](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/46a35a/32.png) [@chicagowhitesox1173](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chicagowhitesox1173)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1645 "2014-08-20T16:56:22Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > Tasers are to subdue someone who is non-compliant. Guns are used to stop someone who is an immediate threat to kill or do serious bodily injury. You come at me with I knife I am not pulling out a taser. You only get one shot. They are hard to use against moving targets. Even if you do hit the taser probes may get caught in clothes. The report I saw about the shooting in St Louis said they gave the guy ample opportunity to drop the knife and give up. He was shot when he got within 4 feet. That is well within the danger zone. > > People have a very Hollywood idea of what it’s like to deal with violent people. Most expect cops to all be ninjas. Yeah but wouldn’t you think that 5 cops could subdue a guy even if he had a knife? It’s not right to put a cop in danger like this but under the circumstances, I’m surprised they shot the kid. This whole deal doesn’t even seem like a issue anymore because of Fergusan though. I do think this kid was looking for attention and I feel the cops should have picked up on this. Again, why shoot to kill, why not at least shoot his leg? Or at least try to hit the kids leg. I 've handled guns in the military and I know once you have a lock on somebody, it’s not that hard to shoot a leg. In a way this incident is more puzzling because in Fergusan the cop probably didn’t have much time to react. But in St Louis, these cops had had a lock on this kid, they had more than 1 cop there and with the mood of the city, that should have played a part too. I guess what I’m trying to say is, are these cops so desensitized that they only follow protocol and not a persons emotion. I’m not trying to bash these cops and I wasn’t there but I think this could have been handled different. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1646 "2014-08-20T16:58:43Z")
The last two shots were head shots, yes? One in the front, one through the top of the head. We may reasonably conclude that they were the last two shots fired, because of the likelihood of fatality or, at least, incapacity. Any problem so far? When the last shot was fired, Brown’s head was face-down in the direction of the officer. I find the implication that he was lowering his head for a spear-like head butt laughable. Because, well, he had already just been shot in the face. Conclusion: he was falling forward when the last shot was fired. How then are we to conclude that the last shot was justified? How often, do we imagine, that someone falling onto his face with a wound to his forehead is going to leap up and assault somebody? ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1647 "2014-08-20T17:06:22Z")
So many people are willing to believe “eye witness” testimony from people who may well have an agenda in their statements. If science accepted eye witness testimony on face value, there would be chapters in science textbooks on alien abductions. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1648 "2014-08-20T17:07:57Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > The last two shots were head shots, yes? One in the front, one through the top of the head. We may reasonably conclude that they were the last two shots fired, because of the likelihood of fatality or, at least, incapacity. Any problem so far? Sounds reasonable. > [@](#): > > How then are we to conclude that the last shot was justified? How often, do we imagine, that someone falling onto his face with a wound to his forehead is going to leap up and assault somebody? Shot 5 hits him in the head and he begins to fall forward, unconscious. Shot 6 comes 0.8 seconds later along the same trajectory as shot 5 and hits the top of the head. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1649 "2014-08-20T17:08:29Z")
> [@chicagowhitesox1173](#): > > Yeah but wouldn’t you think that 5 cops could subdue a guy even if he had a knife? At what cost? A stabbed, possibly dead cop? A cop wants to come home from work. Being dead is no fun. No job is worth dying for. You don’t “subdue” someone with a knife. You get him to put his knife down or you shoot him if he refuses to. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1650 "2014-08-20T17:09:34Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > The last two shots were head shots, yes? One in the front, one through the top of the head. We may reasonably conclude that they were the last two shots fired, because of the likelihood of fatality or, at least, incapacity. Any problem so far? > > When the last shot was fired, Brown’s head was face-down in the direction of the officer. I find the implication that he was lowering his head for a spear-like head butt laughable. Because, well, he had already just been shot in the face. Conclusion: he was falling forward when the last shot was fired. > > How then are we to conclude that the last shot was justified? How often, do we imagine, that someone falling onto his face with a wound to his forehead is going to leap up and assault somebody? What do you think the interval of time was between the two shots? ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1651 "2014-08-20T17:15:53Z")
> [@chicagowhitesox1173](#): > > Again, why shoot to kill, why not at least shoot his leg? Or at least try to hit the kids leg. I 've handled guns in the military and I know once you have a lock on somebody, it’s not that hard to shoot a leg. Regardless of the outcome of this event, or where one’s beliefs and sympathies lie, I really wish you and others would stop Just Asking this (extremely stupid) Question that has been answered and re-answered many times already, here and in countless past threads. _Police are not trained or authorized to shoot people in the leg_. Period. The end. I’m not sure what war you fought in which you were ordered to shoot the enemy but not kill them, but it has no relevance at all to police shootings. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1652 "2014-08-20T17:16:25Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > To some extent, yes. The most common crimes are drug crimes, for example, which many Americans regard as _malum prohibitum_. But what about drunk driving and copyright infringement? Both are arguably not _malo in se_, but I think most Americans nevertheless in 2014 believe it to be morally wrong to engage in either, and yet very large numbers of Americans have committed those crimes. I don’t agree. With respect to copyright infringement, I think most people would draw a moral line between infringing for their own personal use and infringing to make a profit by selling the pirated works. I believe the vast majority of copyright infringement is when people limit their conduct to personal use, and they would argue that there’s a moral way to do that. With respect to drunk driving, I think most people would label it morally wrong, but don’t agree that a vast number of people have done it. The numbers skew even more when taking into account the changing mores; those people old enough to be drivers in 1965 might now regard druink driving as a great moral wrong, but probably didn’t in the pre-MADD era. > [@](#): > > And there’s also all those crimes that are considered part of typical youth when white people do them–fistfights, joyriding in golf carts, vandalism, online harassment, etc.–but considered evidence of chronic criminality when committed in slightly different contexts in black neighborhoods. I’m afraid I don’t agree it’s race. I think race simply becomes a visible proxy for wealth and social position. If Bill Cosby’s kids were caught joyriding in golf carts, I don’t think there’d be a wide-spread sense that their chronic criminality was revealed. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1653 "2014-08-20T17:23:43Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I’m afraid I don’t agree it’s race. I think race simply becomes a visible proxy for wealth and social position. Then it’s race. Just like if race ‘becomes a visible proxy for intelligence and aggressiveness’, it’s still race. ---
**Author:** ![Sinaptics](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Sinaptics](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaptics)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1654 "2014-08-20T17:23:55Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > At what cost? A stabbed, possibly dead cop? > > A cop wants to come home from work. Being dead is no fun. No job is worth dying for. You don’t “subdue” someone with a knife. You get him to put his knife down or you shoot him if he refuses to. Honest question: But with officers covering, doesn’t it make sense to try non-lethal force? If you have 4 guys covering the guy with guns, what’s the harm in the fifth guy trying a taser? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1655 "2014-08-20T17:26:57Z")
> [@Sinaptics](#): > > Honest question: > > But with officers covering, doesn’t it make sense to try non-lethal force? If you have 4 guys covering the guy with guns, what’s the harm in the fifth guy trying a taser? Ok. Honest question: how do you know they had tasers? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1656 "2014-08-20T17:28:20Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Sounds reasonable. > > Shot 5 hits him in the head and he begins to fall forward, unconscious. Shot 6 comes 0.8 seconds later along the same trajectory as shot 5 and hits the top of the head. Thank you for restating my post, I did not realize it required clarification, but I am appropriately grateful. But wherever did you arrive at the “0.8” figure? Case law? At any rate, the question is whether or not the officer considered his shots or simply blazed away. He did not know he had shot Brown in the face, and he was falling forward, or was he already pulling the trigger? Guess it might help if we had the sort of information available with a scene investigation, what with the photos with the circles and the arrows and the writing on the back that explains what they mean. But we don’t, and there are very good reasons for that, I am assured. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1657 "2014-08-20T17:30:46Z")
> [@Sinaptics](#): > > Honest question: > > But with officers covering, doesn’t it make sense to try non-lethal force? If you have 4 guys covering the guy with guns, what’s the harm in the fifth guy trying a taser? Covering the guy only works if you’re willing to pull the trigger if things go tits-up. If the guy’s just standing still but refusing to put down the weapon, your idea could work. But if he is running towards you with a knife, you don’t wait to find out if the taser works. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1658 "2014-08-20T17:32:11Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > At any rate, the question is whether or not the officer considered his shots or simply blazed away. He did not know he had shot Brown in the face, and he was falling forward, or was he already pulling the trigger? Yes, why not, as \*\*BobLibDem \*\*suggested, shoot him a little bit, then see if he is dead, then shoot him a little more? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1659 "2014-08-20T17:34:58Z")
Yes. Indeed. Why not? You make a very good point, though I think you meant it in a tone of sneering contempt. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1660 "2014-08-20T17:35:08Z")
> [@JesterX](#): > > I don’t think Wilson actually said to himself, “I’m going to execute this guy”. But I do think he was so enraged after being assaulted that he just shot and that amounted to an execution. You’re in the street, all alone. A 6’4" 300 pound guy just shoved your door shut on you as you tried to exit your car. Then he hit you in the face and wrestled with you. Now, he backs off and charges you. You have a gun. What do you do? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354.md?page=82) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354.md?page=84)