# Ferguson, MO **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 12, 2014, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354 "2014-08-12T04:51:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 89
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1761 "2014-08-20T22:22:42Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Here’s a question that may shed more light on the various positions of posters in this thread: > > Would the protestor who that cop threatened to kill have been legally justified in killing the cop in self-defense? Why or why not? Was that a protestor? I thought it was a media-reporter/videographer? ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1762 "2014-08-20T22:24:58Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Was that a protestor? I thought it was a media-reporter/videographer? Are you even _capable_ of focusing on the point someone’s making instead of nitpicking about something entirely inconsequential? ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1763 "2014-08-20T22:28:10Z")
> [@woodstockbirdybird](#): > > Are you even _capable_ of focusing on the point someone’s making instead of nitpicking about something entirely inconsequential? Why are so afraid of questions being asked? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1764 "2014-08-20T22:29:26Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > …Not really. Firstly, protest is more or less orthogonal to democracy, as it neither can nor should change anything except opinions - and there’s better ways to do that than shouting on street corners these days. Secondly, the actions of one individual have no bearing on whether democracy is functioning, especially when those actions are condemned by the authority involved… Aw goldurn contrary! If the County Board has poor policy in regards to property tax and its effect on school levies, a polite vote at your local polling place is the appropriate response. If your beloved country is sending young men to kill for a dishonorable cause, further involvement is required. No one ever honored their country by assisting in an ignoble cause. Does it change things, is it effective? You don’t get to know that, you pays your time and you takes your chances, and you get your fair share of abuse. Or you don’t. YMMV. > [@](#): > > …The only reason that there’s no functioning democracy there is that 89% of people have chosen not to vote. Few things are as difficult as convincing the hopeless that they have power. And authority already knows that power is in precisely the right hands, and tend to be suspicious of change. Quite. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1765 "2014-08-20T22:30:29Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Was that a protestor? I thought it was a media-reporter/videographer? I don’t know for sure. It looked to me like he was addressing someone to the side of the person videotaping. Is that distinction important to your assessment of their right to use self-defense? ---
**Author:** ![JesterX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/439d5e/32.png) [@JesterX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JesterX)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1766 "2014-08-20T22:31:16Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > You misunderstood the word “outrun.” However you meant it, it’s just as incredible to say Mike Brown charged Wilson’s loaded gun as it is to say Wilson tried to arrest Brown from inside his car. ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1767 "2014-08-20T22:34:07Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Why are so afraid of questions being asked? 😕 I’m not afraid of questions being asked. I am _annoyed_ by dumb-ass questions that have nothing to do with what’s being talked about derailing the actual point of the discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1768 "2014-08-20T22:34:10Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > When I look at that clip and try to figure out which unprofessional behavior I find most upsetting, it’s not so much the reporters as the police officer pointing his gun at citizens and threatening murder. > > Also, based on that clip if I’m trying to pin down what might be contributing to the tensions in the area, I’m once again going to focus on the unhinged police officer threatening to murder citizens while pointing a gun at them. I’m funny that way. > > I find it really telling that the usual suspects are trying to act like that cop’s behavior is no big deal. He is the embodiment of why people in Ferguson are upset. The police are out of control and they clearly are not used to anyone questioning or challenging their behavior. I want more reporters in town. I want everyone to take a good hard look at what the police are doing there and ask themselves is it right? There can be more than one thing wrong in a clip. Did you really need me to give you a +1? It is a tried and true tactic of protesters to goad individual police officers into bad reactions and then yell “See the violence inherent in the system!” Also a tried and true tactic of paparazzi. It worked. He should have known better. He is being disciplined for it. In that kind of situation you have to take the Dalton philosophy of security. It’s also incumbent on the supervisors to make sure people are rotated out since the stress of being out front is going to wear people down. He shouldn’t have snapped. And he is going to pay for it. He’s not a furguson cop by the way. The town only has 53 officers. CNN alone probably has twice that number. So since I had nothing to add to your point except that I agreed it was improper behavior I decided to point out something else. The media is Heisenberging the fuck out of the situation. You want the reporters to point out the problems to the world. Fine. What if they are making things worse? ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1769 "2014-08-20T22:36:42Z")
> [@JesterX](#): > > However you meant it, it’s just as incredible to say Mike Brown charged Wilson’s loaded gun as it is to say Wilson tried to arrest Brown from inside his car. Let’s try this again. I’ll repost my question. Do you see any mention of Brown in it? \*You’re in the street, all alone. A 6’4" 300 pound guy just shoved your door shut on you as you tried to exit your car. Then he hit you in the face and wrestled with you. Now, he backs off and charges you. You have a gun. What do you do? \* Now, can you answer the above question please? ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1770 "2014-08-20T22:36:53Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > [The Dream Defenders](http://www.miamiherald.com/2014/08/14/4290418/local-groups-gather-to-support.html) [are back](http://www.tallahassee.com/story/news/local/2014/08/18/dream-defenders-organize-tallahassee-hands-march/14270583/). Links with no context, explanation or comment. At least you are consistent. ---
**Author:** ![GrandWino](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grandwino/32/67_2.png) [@GrandWino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrandWino)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1771 "2014-08-20T22:39:34Z")
The cop that threatened to kill that protestor (yes, it was a protestor) has been suspended. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1772 "2014-08-20T22:42:24Z")
> [@GrandWino](#): > > The cop that threatened to kill that protestor (yes, it was a protestor) has been suspended. Sorry I wasn’t specific. I mentioned that he was being disciplined a few posts ago. I should have brought a cite. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1773 "2014-08-20T22:43:27Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Here’s a question that may shed more light on the various positions of posters in this thread: > > Would the protestor who that cop threatened to kill have been legally justified in killing the cop in self-defense? Why or why not? If the protester believed he was in imminent danger – that is, if the protester genuinely thought the cop was serious – then yes, legally. The problems he would face is making a jury believe he thought the cop was serious. But on the record, the cop said he was going to kill, he was armed with a weapon that gave him that immediate ability, and that certainly satisfies the objective component. ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1774 "2014-08-20T22:47:54Z")
I was just watching a CNN panel talking about the case, and the host asked the question “What do you do when you have these dramatically different eyewitness accounts?” The legal expert starts talking about the physical evidence “ …, Brown’s DNA on the gun would suggest he tried to grab it,…” I admit the first thing I thought was “OJ! Someone’s going say it was planted!" ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1775 "2014-08-20T22:49:53Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > If the protester believed he was in imminent danger – that is, if the protester genuinely thought the cop was serious – then yes, legally. > > The problems he would face is making a jury believe he thought the cop was serious. But on the record, the cop said he was going to kill, he was armed with a weapon that gave him that immediate ability, and that certainly satisfies the objective component. And that the officer was acting outside the legal scope of his job. Which certainly appears to be the case here. Unless it is shown that something happened before the edit that warranted his response. I don’t think that is likely. It seems that he gave into being goaded and lost his professionalism. The only thing at least a little in the cops favor at this point is that at least he had his finger off the trigger. That’s not much but at least a little of his training was seeping through his anger. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1776 "2014-08-20T22:52:09Z")
Next question. If they do move to prosecute Wilson, is it even remotely possible to get a jury panel who has not heard about the case and formed an opinion in this matter? ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1777 "2014-08-20T22:59:17Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > Next question. If they do move to prosecute Wilson, is it even remotely possible to get a jury panel who has not heard about the case and formed an opinion in this matter? That is a huge problem. With most people’s attitudes about jury duty even in mundane trials you get a pool of people too dumb to figure out how to get out of it (and some who feel it’s their civic duty). With this case you would have to get a jury of shut ins. One side or both will probably argue for a change of venue which will most likely be granted. If I was Wilson I might ask for a non-jury trial (if allowed by state law) to try and keep emotions out of it. But if Missouri has elected judges you then have to worry about politics coming into it. Any way you look at it there will be difficulties. ---
**Author:** ![JesterX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/439d5e/32.png) [@JesterX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JesterX)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1778 "2014-08-20T23:00:07Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > Let’s try this again. I’ll repost my question. Do you see any mention of Brown in it? > > \*You’re in the street, all alone. A 6’4" 300 pound guy just shoved your door shut on you as you tried to exit your car. Then he hit you in the face and wrestled with you. Now, he backs off and charges you. You have a gun. What do you do? > \* > > Now, can you answer the above question please? I’d shoot. Now let me try this again… A 6’3" - 6’5", 240 - 260 lb cop just thwarted your attempt to wrestle his gun away from him and even got a shot off. You book. The cop fires so you stop to surrender. But the cop keeps firing. What can you do? ---
**Author:** ![JesterX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/439d5e/32.png) [@JesterX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JesterX)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1779 "2014-08-20T23:08:58Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > That is a huge problem. With most people’s attitudes about jury duty even in mundane trials you get a pool of people too dumb to figure out how to get out of it (and some who feel it’s their civic duty). With this case you would have to get a jury of shut ins. One side or both will probably argue for a change of venue which will most likely be granted. If I was Wilson I might ask for a non-jury trial (if allowed by state law) to try and keep emotions out of it. But if Missouri has elected judges you then have to worry about politics coming into it. Any way you look at it there will be difficulties. A lot of states have cleaned up their jury systems. It’s much harder to get out of jury duty these days. Not sure about Missouri, but here in NY, after your first pass, it’s damn near impossible to skirt. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1780 "2014-08-20T23:10:42Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > There can be more than one thing wrong in a clip. Did you really need me to give you a +1? > > It is a tried and true tactic of protesters to goad individual police officers into bad reactions and then yell “See the violence inherent in the system!” Also a tried and true tactic of paparazzi. It worked. He should have known better. He is being disciplined for it. In that kind of situation you have to take the Dalton philosophy of security. It’s also incumbent on the supervisors to make sure people are rotated out since the stress of being out front is going to wear people down. He shouldn’t have snapped. And he is going to pay for it. He’s not a furguson cop by the way. The town only has 53 officers. CNN alone probably has twice that number. > > So since I had nothing to add to your point except that I agreed it was improper behavior I decided to point out something else. The media is Heisenberging the fuck out of the situation. You want the reporters to point out the problems to the world. Fine. What if they are making things worse? even in your condemnation of the cop, you are making a lot of allowances for what might have lead to his “unprofessional ism” (i.e. threatening to murder people), I’m sure you have the same empathy for Brown and what lead to his state of mind. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354.md?page=88) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354.md?page=90)