# Ferguson, MO **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 12, 2014, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354 "2014-08-12T04:51:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 90
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1781 "2014-08-20T23:11:24Z")
> [@JesterX](#): > > I’d shoot. > > Now let me try this again… > > A 6’3" - 6’5", 240 - 260 lb cop just thwarted your attempt to wrestle his gun away from him and even got a shot off. You book. The cop fires so you stop to surrender. Implying that a cop would fire at a fleeing suspect. ---
**Author:** ![Lucky\_Mike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de053/32.png) [@Lucky\_Mike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lucky_Mike)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1782 "2014-08-20T23:11:50Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > Well, not really a flame, but here’s the first thought I had upon reading your disdain for the discussion: _Thank you_ **Lucky Mike** for coming into the thread as the sole poster neither guessing nor conjecturing nor engaging in semantics! > > We truly are the “lucky” ones for having your awesome contributions which helpfully reduce all interpretations of events, whether recorded, reconstructed or just imagined, into dry “possibilities” without any of those messy relative weightings of evidence and foolish ratiocinations. > > This will make future discussions so much easier, as all we’ll have to do is admit all things are possible, and then nobody has to think about any of it until it’s all wrapped up in a bow for us as events come to their inevitable clear resolution. Touche. But I hope you can agree that when groups engage in guessing about things and demanding fast answers, and using their own biased personalities to draw potential conclusions, the outcome has, historically, not been very good. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1783 "2014-08-20T23:12:25Z")
> [@GrandWino](#): > > The cop that threatened to kill that protestor (yes, it was a protestor) has been suspended. Good. ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1784 "2014-08-20T23:15:43Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Implying that a cop would fire at a fleeing suspect. Because cops have _never_ done anything remotely [shady](http://7online.com/archive/9440401/). ---
**Author:** ![JesterX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/439d5e/32.png) [@JesterX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JesterX)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1785 "2014-08-20T23:15:51Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Implying that a cop would fire at a fleeing suspect. Didn’t mean to imply anything. I’ll state point blank, I believe Wilson intentionally fired at the fleeing Brown. That’s what made Brown stop and turn around. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1786 "2014-08-20T23:17:15Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > even in your condemnation of the cop, you are making a lot of allowances for what might have lead to his “unprofessional ism” (i.e. threatening to murder people), I’m sure you have the same empathy for Brown and what lead to his state of mind. Are you saying it happened in a vacuum? Yes I can place myself in Brown’s shoes. If I had just committed a robbery and then stopped by the police I would be highly agitated. Just like I know if I was placed in a high stress situation like dealing with rioters and looters for hours over several days I would be stressed and agitated. That doesn’t excuse the behavior. But I can have empathy. Can you? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1787 "2014-08-20T23:21:02Z")
> [@woodstockbirdybird](#): > > Because cops have _never_ done anything remotely [shady](http://7online.com/archive/9440401/). Sounds to me like they responded appropriately to a person who was resisting arrest and refusing to comply with police instructions. The prosecutors were clearly incompetent if they didn’t think they could acquire a conviction. ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1788 "2014-08-20T23:22:44Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Sounds to me like they responded appropriately to a person who was resisting arrest and refusing to comply with police instructions. The prosecutors were clearly incompetent if they didn’t think they could acquire a conviction. I have no doubt that’s how it sounds to you, being the fascist PoS you are. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1789 "2014-08-20T23:26:17Z")
> [@woodstockbirdybird](#): > > I have no doubt that’s how it sounds to you, being the fascist PoS you are. Well, that’s what he admits to; [QUOTE=Your article] Sarah: “Why didn’t you get out of the car?” Jeter: “Because I was afraid.” [/QUOTE] He refused a direct order to step out of the car. At that instant, he is a criminal resisting arrest. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1790 "2014-08-20T23:30:13Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > Are you saying it happened in a vacuum? Yes I can place myself in Brown’s shoes. If I had just committed a robbery and then stopped by the police I would be highly agitated. Just like I know if I was placed in a high stress situation like dealing with rioters and looters for hours over several days I would be stressed and agitated. That doesn’t excuse the behavior. But I can have empathy. Can you? Well, you talk about the protesters taunting the cops to provoke a reaction, how about living in a town like Ferguson where black citizens face a lifetime of being harassed, intimidated and provoked by a deeply hostile police department? Can you see how a whole community would decide that enough is enough? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1791 "2014-08-20T23:32:33Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > Well, you talk about the protesters taunting the cops to provoke a reaction, how about living in a town like Ferguson where black citizens face a lifetime of being harassed, intimidated and provoked by a deeply hostile police department? Can you see how a whole community would decide that enough is enough? They have the right to make that decision at the ballot box. Not by looting and pillaging and attempting to murder public servants. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1792 "2014-08-20T23:32:51Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > He refused a direct order to step out of the car. At that instant, he is a criminal resisting arrest. An answer which both confirms and ignores the fascist PoS epithet… ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1793 "2014-08-20T23:44:03Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Here’s a question that may shed more light on the various positions of posters in this thread: > > Would the protestor who that cop threatened to kill have been legally justified in killing the cop in self-defense? Why or why not? Theoretically yes, if the threat was believable and imminent. I’d say that pretty much any threat of killing someone with a gun is imminent if the gun is held, so it comes down to whether a reasonable person would feel that the threat was real. With the benefit of distance, it seems to me that the threat was hyperbolic, but one has to remember that sober reflection isn’t required when a weapon is aimed at you. So, it’s quite possible it would be self defence. > [@JesterX](#): > > Now let me try this again… > > A 6’3" - 6’5", 240 - 260 lb cop just thwarted your attempt to wrestle his gun away from him and even got a shot off. You book. The cop fires so you stop to surrender. But the cop keeps firing. What can you do? Nothing. You were dead when you grabbed the gun, if not sooner. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1794 "2014-08-20T23:46:34Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > “Killing a cop in self-defense” is an oxymoron. You are an unbearable imbecile, with the critical thinking ability and empathy of a particularly slow-witted potted plant. It’s an embarrassment to be on the same side of a debate as you, and that people might think I share your views or, erm, _unusual_ worldview. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1795 "2014-08-20T23:56:39Z")
> [@JesterX](#): > > I’d shoot. > > Now let me try this again… > > A 6’3" - 6’5", 240 - 260 lb cop just thwarted your attempt to wrestle his gun away from him and even got a shot off. You book. The cop fires so you stop to surrender. But the cop keeps firing. What can you do? If an officer orders me to get out of my car, or move on, or not go to that side of the street, I comply, simple as that. I wouldn’t make a scene, curse at the officer or delay in complying. I would never go for an officer’s gun and not expect to get a few nights free lodging in the sheriff’s hotel at the very least, or possibly shot. So the answer to your question, since you’ve made it personal to me, is this. I would never be in that position. ---
**Author:** ![JesterX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/439d5e/32.png) [@JesterX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JesterX)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1796 "2014-08-21T00:02:39Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Nothing. You were dead when you grabbed the gun, if not sooner. No. The law says you’re not. A cop can’t execute a guy who’s in a surrender posture just because he’s mad the guy went after the his gun at some point earlier. Well, scratch that. The cop CAN do it, but he’d be guilty of murder. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1797 "2014-08-21T00:07:24Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > Well, you talk about the protesters taunting the cops to provoke a reaction, how about living in a town like Ferguson where black citizens face a lifetime of being harassed, intimidated and provoked by a deeply hostile police department? Can you see how a whole community would decide that enough is enough? The population of Furguson is over 21,000. The police force is 53. Which I would estimate to mean that there are 3-5 officers max per shift. They are some hard workers if they are harassing the entire population. But perception can become reality. A few bad incidents can sour the town against the police force. If it is a good old boy network (I have no idea about their hiring process) that keeps out diversity that needs to change. If they are using traffic stops strictly for revenue and not legitimate traffic enforcement that breeds ill will in the community. Accountability has to be transparent. All these things should be fought for. At the ballot box and with protests too if that will help. But not looting, burning, throwing bottles and shooting. As for taunting the police, as has been established a lot of those who have been arrested are outside agitators who have their own agenda and have no reason to hate or love a town and police force they never heard of until recently. The actual community leaders I’ve seen have called for calm and peaceful action. ---
**Author:** ![JesterX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/439d5e/32.png) [@JesterX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JesterX)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1798 "2014-08-21T00:09:10Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > If an officer orders me to get out of my car, or move on, or not go to that side of the street, I comply, simple as that. I wouldn’t make a scene, curse at the officer or delay in complying. > > I would never go for an officer’s gun and not expect to get a few nights free lodging in the sheriff’s hotel at the very least, or possibly shot. > So the answer to your question, since you’ve made it personal to me, is this. I would never be in that position. That’s a duck, but whatever. I formed the question in the same context that you posed yours to me. Which absurdly implied that Mike Brown charged Wilson’s loaded gun. The reason you ducked it is because you didn’t want to say that you WOULD NOT charge the gun. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1799 "2014-08-21T00:13:05Z")
> [@JesterX](#): > > No. The law says you’re not. A cop can’t execute a guy who’s in a surrender posture just because he’s mad the guy went after the his gun at some point earlier. Well, scratch that. The cop CAN do it, but he’d be guilty of murder. You asked what I could do at that point, not what the cop should do. The same would apply if you grabbed anyone else’s gun, they can and should assume you are a threat and do whatever they have to to stop you. To answer your question - again - when you’ve attempted to take someone’s gun off them, and failed, there is pretty much nothing you can do to save your life. It is out of your hands. There’s not going to be time to clearly indicate surrender before they’ve emptied the gun, assuming they do it properly. So, don’t try to grab someone’s gun unless there’s no other way to save your life. This has nothing to do with law or morality, at this point that’s irrelevant. Although a law that prevents you from stopping someone attempting to violently take a deadly weapon from you would be about the worst law possible. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1800 "2014-08-21T00:19:12Z")
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