# Ferguson, MO **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 12, 2014, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354 "2014-08-12T04:51:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 91
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1801 "2014-08-21T00:20:58Z")
> [@JesterX](#): > > I’d shoot. > > Now let me try this again… > > A 6’3" - 6’5", 240 - 260 lb cop just thwarted your attempt to wrestle his gun away from him and even got a shot off. You book. The cop fires so you stop to surrender. But the cop keeps firing. What can you do? I have been told that commending your soul to Jesus is appropriate in such circumstances. Good as any, I suppose… ---
**Author:** ![JesterX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/439d5e/32.png) [@JesterX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JesterX)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1802 "2014-08-21T00:25:39Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > You asked what I could do at that point, not what the cop should do. > > The same would apply if you grabbed anyone else’s gun, they can and should assume you are a threat and do whatever they have to to stop you. > > To answer your question - again - when you’ve attempted to take someone’s gun off them, and failed, there is pretty much nothing you can do to save your life. It is out of your hands. There’s not going to be time to clearly indicate surrender before they’ve emptied the gun, assuming they do it properly. > > So, don’t try to grab someone’s gun unless there’s no other way to save your life. This has nothing to do with law or morality, at this point that’s irrelevant. Although a law that prevents you from stopping someone attempting to violently take a deadly weapon from you would be about the worst law possible. In Ferguson, there WAS sufficient time for Brown to clearly indicate he had surrendered. Even if you don’t believe he put his hands up, both the cops AND the witness accounts say he ran 30+ feet away, then stopped and turned around. That was enough time. Yet it IS the law that you can’t execute someone who’s no longer a threat just because you’re pissed that they went after your gun. Maybe YOU decided “to hell with law or morality”, but the rest of society can’t do that. Not if it cares about justice. ---
**Author:** ![Sinaptics](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Sinaptics](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaptics)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1803 "2014-08-21T00:32:14Z")
> [@JesterX](#): > > In Ferguson, there WAS sufficient time for Brown to clearly indicate he had surrendered. Even if you don’t believe he put his hands up, both the cops AND the witness accounts say he ran 30+ feet away, then stopped and turned around. That was enough time. > > Yet it IS the law that you can’t execute someone who’s no longer a threat just because you’re pissed that they went after your gun. Maybe YOU decided “to hell with law or morality”, but the rest of society can’t do that. Not if it cares about justice. Just want to remind that we don’t know that Brown went for Wilson’s gun. We only have Wilson’s statement to corroborate that. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1804 "2014-08-21T00:48:34Z")
> [@JesterX](#): > > In Ferguson, there WAS sufficient time for Brown to clearly indicate he had surrendered. Even if you don’t believe he put his hands up, both the cops AND the witness accounts say he ran 30+ feet away, then stopped and turned around. That was enough time. > > Yet it IS the law that you can’t execute someone who’s no longer a threat just because you’re pissed that they went after your gun. Maybe YOU decided “to hell with law or morality”, but the rest of society can’t do that. Not if it cares about justice. Running away then turning round isn’t surrendering, necessarily. Someone who has previously attacked you, and fractured your eyesocket, starting to come back to you could quite reasonably be considered an imminent threat. Not that that has anything to do with your actual question, which was about what the aggressor should do to save his life, not what the victim of his attack is or isn’t allowed to do. Are you asking what counts as a surrender in law, and would mean that, legally, the right to self defence on the part of the victim has ended? And remember that, unless proved otherwise, the cop should be considered the victim here. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1805 "2014-08-21T00:49:39Z")
> [@Sinaptics](#): > > Just want to remind that we don’t know that Brown went for Wilson’s gun. We only have Wilson’s statement to corroborate that. No, but we know he was close enough to fracture his eyesocket. ---
**Author:** ![Sinaptics](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Sinaptics](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaptics)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1806 "2014-08-21T00:55:41Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > No, but we know he was close enough to fracture his eyesocket. Also unconfirmed as far as I’m aware. We have one unnamed source. > [@](#): > > Fox News, citing a “source close to the department’s top brass. While I don’t find it unlikely, with so many facts being contested, I’m inclined to wait for further corroboration. ---
**Author:** ![JesterX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/439d5e/32.png) [@JesterX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JesterX)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1807 "2014-08-21T00:55:59Z")
> [@Sinaptics](#): > > Just want to remind that we don’t know that Brown went for Wilson’s gun. We only have Wilson’s statement to corroborate that. I agree but it seems plausible that Brown attacked Wilson first. Even if Wilson didn’t know Brown was a robbery suspect initially, certainly Brown himself, knew he was. And if you’re crazy enough to jump a cop, you’d HAVE to go for the gun. Otherwise, what are you trying to accomplish? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1808 "2014-08-21T00:57:28Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > …At the ballot box and with protests too if that will help. But not looting, burning, throwing bottles and shooting… Painfully simplistic. Well, of course not! But it is impossible to go forward with a public protest without attracting the attention of assholes. How would you do that? Had the same sorts of problems back in the day. Schedule an anti-war demonstration, and the nuts come out. Shit disturbers, the kind of people who thrive on ugly. There was one particular cadre of self-described Maoists that I would cheerfully have experimented upon, Lecter and Dexter style. And you would hear the same chorus: well, this civil protest is all very well, perhaps, but doesn’t justify this sort of behavior yadda blah yadda blah… As if we were _rooting_ for them, tickled half to _death_ to have them show up! Who we needed to show up was your Aunt Esther, and the choral group from the Methodist Church! We needed those Maoist morons like a jalapeño enema! Would have preferred, actually. So what would you have them do? Give up? There is serious change afoot, possibilities. Would they be there without the strife and stress? Likely, but slowly, in my own view. But I’m not a black father living in Ferguson, who has to tell his son how carefully he must behave. I am not in a position to scold his choices. ---
**Author:** ![Sinaptics](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Sinaptics](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaptics)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1809 "2014-08-21T00:58:29Z")
> [@JesterX](#): > > I agree but it seems plausible that Brown attacked Wilson first. Even if Wilson didn’t know Brown was a robbery suspect initially, certainly Brown himself, knew he was. And if you’re crazy enough to jump a cop, you’d HAVE to go for the gun. Otherwise, what are you trying to accomplish? What if there was a scuffle at/in Wilson’s car and Wilson drew the gun himself and fired either purposefully or accidentally? I find that equally as likely as Brown trying to snatch Wilson’s weapon. Additionally, we don’t know Brown attacked the cop. Again, witnesses have Wilson attacking Brown. ---
**Author:** ![Sinaptics](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Sinaptics](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaptics)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1810 "2014-08-21T00:59:52Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > And remember that, unless proved otherwise, the cop should be considered the victim here. I thought we treated everyone as innocent until proven guilty. ---
**Author:** ![JesterX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/439d5e/32.png) [@JesterX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JesterX)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1811 "2014-08-21T01:05:55Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Running away then turning round isn’t surrendering, necessarily. Someone who has previously attacked you, and fractured your eyesocket, starting to come back to you could quite reasonably be considered an imminent threat. > > Not that that has anything to do with your actual question, which was about what the aggressor should do to save his life, not what the victim of his attack is or isn’t allowed to do. > > Are you asking what counts as a surrender in law, and would mean that, legally, the right to self defence on the part of the victim has ended? And remember that, unless proved otherwise, the cop should be considered the victim here. The victim is clearly Brown. He’s the dead one. Killed by Wilson and that is not in dispute. That makes him the victim. The whole point of my question was, would someone elect to charge into a loaded gun. I wouldn’t. I doubt you would. I don’t think Brown did. You made the point that someone wouldn’t have sufficient time to surrender after losing a wrestling match for a gun. My only point was that in Ferguson, there was CLEARLY enough time. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1812 "2014-08-21T01:06:15Z")
The other StL shooting, on video: > **[St. Louis Police Release Video Of Kajieme Powell Killing That Appears At Odds...](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/kajieme-powell-shooting_n_5696546)** > > St. Louis Police Release Video Of Kajieme Powell Killing That Appears At Odds With Their Story clear suicide by cop. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1813 "2014-08-21T01:07:36Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Had the same sorts of problems back in the day. Schedule an anti-war demonstration, and the nuts come out. Shit disturbers, the kind of people who thrive on ugly. There was one particular cadre of self-described Maoists that I would cheerfully have experimented upon, Lecter and Dexter style. According to Charles Johnson (he of Little Green Footballs), their spiritual descendants are stirring the shit in Ferguson: [Revolutionary Communist Party Inciting Violence](http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/43749_One_of_the_Outside_Groups_Inciting_Violence_in_Ferguson-_The_Revolutionary_Communist_Party) ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1814 "2014-08-21T01:18:00Z")
> [@Sinaptics](#): > > I thought we treated everyone as innocent until proven guilty. Yes, that’s what I’m doing. Treating someone who claims to be the victim of a serious assault as that, not as a criminal. > [@JesterX](#): > > The victim is clearly Brown. He’s the dead one. Killed by Wilson and that is not in dispute. That makes him the victim. Nope, not if he started the fight, or resisted the officer. > [@](#): > > The whole point of my question was, would someone elect to charge into a loaded gun. I wouldn’t. I doubt you would. I don’t think Brown did. You made the point that someone wouldn’t have sufficient time to surrender after losing a wrestling match for a gun. My only point was that in Ferguson, there was CLEARLY enough time. Only if the officer elected not to shoot him as soon as he regained control of the gun. Which, if he did, was a mistake both because he put his own safety at risk, and because he opened up this ludicrous line of questioning. It’s interesting how much this thread is paralleling the various Zimmerman threads, not least the dismissing of the harm done to the head and face of the victim, the distortion of the time and distance involved, the expectation that someone who has been punched in the head and was possibly under attack should be capable of careful reflection on the best course of action (an expectation that has been completely discounted in American law), and the false idea that an unarmed person, despite being much larger, couldn’t _possibly_ be a real threat. But yeah, if it turns out that Brown was lying prostrate on the ground, but was somehow shot repeatedly in the front, I’ll accept that he surrendered. Otherwise, I doubt he did anything that would meet that standard. Holding your hands up whilst moving back towards someone emphatically does not meet that standard. ---
**Author:** ![JesterX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/439d5e/32.png) [@JesterX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JesterX)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1815 "2014-08-21T01:18:06Z")
> [@Sinaptics](#): > > What if there was a scuffle at/in Wilson’s car and Wilson drew the gun himself and fired either purposefully or accidentally? > > I find that equally as likely as Brown trying to snatch Wilson’s weapon. > > Additionally, we don’t know Brown attacked the cop. Again, witnesses have Wilson attacking Brown. Well, what started the scuffle? We can see in the robbery video that Brown was clearly feeling aggressive that day. If Wilson had gotten out of his car, I could buy that he might’ve started it. But NO WAY would he have started a scuffle with a guy Brown’s size from inside his car. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1816 "2014-08-21T01:25:25Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > … Holding your hands up whilst moving back towards someone emphatically does not meet that standard. What? As in, “da fuq”? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1817 "2014-08-21T01:31:43Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > The other StL shooting, on video: > > [St. Louis Police Release Video Of Kajieme Powell Killing That Appears At Odds With Their Story | HuffPost Latest News](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/20/kajieme-powell-shooting_n_5696546.html) > > clear suicide by cop. I can’t tell from that video if he had a knife, but if so, that was clearly self defence. Anyone talking about the length of time people have to decide need to watch this video. He moves away and towards the cops pretty damn fast, and they have to decide pretty much instantly what to do. Some observations, the police were reasonably polite when asking people to move back, and there was nothing said about people recording it. ---
**Author:** ![JesterX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/439d5e/32.png) [@JesterX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JesterX)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1818 "2014-08-21T01:33:28Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Nope, not if he started the fight, or resisted the officer. The dead one is ALWAYS the victim. The question is whether or not the circumstance of his/her death was justified. But that’s semantics. Have it your way if it makes you feel good. > [@Steophan](#): > > Only if the officer elected not to shoot him as soon as he regained control of the gun. Which, if he did, was a mistake both because he put his own safety at risk, and because he opened up this ludicrous line of questioning. Or if the officer couldn’t shoot him because he took off before the officer could retain control of his gun in order to fire. > [@Steophan](#): > > It’s interesting how much this thread is paralleling the various Zimmerman threads, not least the dismissing of the harm done to the head and face of the victim, the distortion of the time and distance involved, the expectation that someone who has been punched in the head and was possibly under attack should be capable of careful reflection on the best course of action (an expectation that has been completely discounted in American law), and the false idea that an unarmed person, despite being much larger, couldn’t _possibly_ be a real threat. Unarmed, standing 30 feet away, when you have your gun pointed at him, Brown is NOT a threat. > [@Steophan](#): > > But yeah, if it turns out that Brown was lying prostrate on the ground, but was somehow shot repeatedly in the front, I’ll accept that he surrendered. Otherwise, I doubt he did anything that would meet that standard. Holding your hands up whilst moving back towards someone emphatically does not meet that standard. Brown didn’t move back towards the Wilson. It makes ZERO sense that one would first run from a gun, then run towards it. If anything, Brown would’ve continued running away. Not come back to Wilson. ---
**Author:** ![Sinaptics](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Sinaptics](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaptics)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1819 "2014-08-21T01:34:15Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > I can’t tell from that video if he had a knife, but if so, that was clearly self defence. > > Anyone talking about the length of time people have to decide need to watch this video. He moves away and towards the cops pretty damn fast, and they have to decide pretty much instantly what to do. > > Some observations, the police were reasonably polite when asking people to move back, and there was nothing said about people recording it. I agree. I read an article where they were making hay out of the police report saying that the assailant was only 4 feet away when he was further, but that guy was definitely in, or very close to, striking distance. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1820 "2014-08-21T01:55:56Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > The population of Furguson is over 21,000. The police force is 53. Which I would estimate to mean that there are 3-5 officers max per shift. They are some hard workers if they are harassing the entire population. But perception can become reality. A few bad incidents can sour the town against the police force. If it is a good old boy network (I have no idea about their hiring process) that keeps out diversity that needs to change. If they are using traffic stops strictly for revenue and not legitimate traffic enforcement that breeds ill will in the community. Accountability has to be transparent. All these things should be fought for. At the ballot box and with protests too if that will help. But not looting, burning, throwing bottles and shooting. > > As for taunting the police, as has been established a lot of those who have been arrested are outside agitators who have their own agenda and have no reason to hate or love a town and police force they never heard of until recently. The actual community leaders I’ve seen have called for calm and peaceful action. There is also the county PD who also have a well documented history of racism: a lieutenant was fired after telling officers to arrest more black people, the city and the county PD rely on tickets and court fees for funding and blacks have been shown to have been targeted disproportionately despite stops of whites yielding more arrests. What you insist on calling a few bad apples is systematic harassment of black citizens. You seem to think that the blacks are just misinformed about what they experience in their own community which is pretty fucking condescending and telling. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354.md?page=90) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354.md?page=92)