# Ferguson, MO **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 12, 2014, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354 "2014-08-12T04:51:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 93
**Author:** ![JesterX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/439d5e/32.png) [@JesterX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JesterX)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1841 "2014-08-21T05:24:48Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > And yet, you seem to keep ignoring what happened after he stopped… Despite him having been seen running back towards Wilson. The only account that Brown ran back is the unofficial one from the cop and from an unsubstantiated YouTube video. There are 3 KNOWN witnesses that say he didn’t run back. Like I said, logically, it makes no sense that Brown ran from the gun, then ran towards it. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1842 "2014-08-21T05:49:23Z")
> [@JesterX](#): > > Because you have to decide the one who was shot did something wrong before you can declare a shooter justified. No, you don’t. You have to decide whether the shooter was in reasonable fear of death or serious injury. The morality or legality of the actions of the person shot are utterly irrelevant. Now, in practice, they will often turn out to be wrong actions if the shooting is justified, but it’s neither necessary nor sufficient that they were. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1843 "2014-08-21T05:53:39Z")
> [@JesterX](#): > > The only account that Brown ran back is the unofficial one from the cop and from an unsubstantiated YouTube video. There are 3 KNOWN witnesses that say he didn’t run back. Like I said, logically, it makes no sense that Brown ran from the gun, then ran towards it. So you have two unofficial statements that he ran back, and three unofficial statements that he didn’t. In other words, you can’t know. Did you watch the video of the other shooting that was discussed earlier? Do you think that guys actions make logical sense? People very often act illogically, especially in times of high stress - such as being in a confrontation with the police. If Brown had acted logically and sensibly he wouldn’t have stolen cigars, wouldn’t have attacked the shopkeeper, wouldn’t have jaywalked, wouldn’t have punched the police officer, wouldn’t have run away from him, and wouldn’t have run back. Now, maybe not all of those things happened, but the majority did. Why are you only focussing on the last? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1844 "2014-08-21T06:07:03Z")
Because the last one is the \*most \*implausible. Enough raw material to keep the Improbability Drive fueled for 12 parsecs. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1845 "2014-08-21T06:13:27Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Because the last one is the \*most \*implausible. Enough raw material to keep the Improbability Drive fueled for 12 parsecs. Hardly. As I said, watch the other video where the guy rushes towards the cops screaming at them to kill him. Yes, such behaviour is illogical, stupid, suicidal, whatever you want to call it. But implausible? As in, not something people actually do? Perhaps you should come back from Vulcan at some point. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1846 "2014-08-21T06:27:09Z")
Hey, not till _pon_ _farr_ is over! Seven years may not seem like a long time to _you_, maybe, probably used to it… ---
**Author:** ![JesterX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/439d5e/32.png) [@JesterX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JesterX)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1847 "2014-08-21T06:29:56Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > So you have two unofficial statements that he ran back, and three unofficial statements that he didn’t. In other words, you can’t know. > > Did you watch the video of the other shooting that was discussed earlier? Do you think that guys actions make logical sense? People very often act illogically, especially in times of high stress - such as being in a confrontation with the police. > > If Brown had acted logically and sensibly he wouldn’t have stolen cigars, wouldn’t have attacked the shopkeeper, wouldn’t have jaywalked, wouldn’t have punched the police officer, wouldn’t have run away from him, and wouldn’t have run back. Now, maybe not all of those things happened, but the majority did. Why are you only focussing on the last? Because all of the actions you just listed are for Brown’s self-gratification or self-preservation EXCEPT the last. That’s the one that doesn’t fit. And yes, the guy from the other shooting’s actions does make sense if he wanted the cops to kill him. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 8:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1848 "2014-08-21T08:17:44Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > Second, I really what to know what happened in the few minutes prior to that cops statement. Preferably a video of it. I can think of a lot of things that might mitigate that statement. Well, there should be video of it, since the cop was threatening a cameraman. Generally speaking, I give cops the benefit of the doubt. But these officers have been criticized by experts who note that they have [military hardware without training](http://www.vox.com/2014/8/14/6003239/police-militarization-in-ferguson): others have noted that the the soldiers in Falujah generally didn’t point their rifles at people like the bozos of Ferguson do. Here’s one quote: [INDENT]Training does a lot more than just tell people how to safely use the equipment. It teaches them when and how to responsibly bring that gear into tense situations, like the one in Ferguson, in a way that will de-escalate tensions rather than escalate them, and how a police officer should change his or her behavior when upgrading from a regular uniform and sidearm to camo fatigues and an assault rifle. “When cops, just like other human beings, are frightened - and sometimes they are! - there’s a tendency to act impulsively. Which is to say: to do exactly the opposite of what they need to be doing,” former Seattle police chief Norman Stamper told me. That risk is heightened significantly when cops roll heavy equipment into suburban streets. “That’s a function of training,” Stamped explained. “That’s on individual cops to be sure, but it’s also on the organization itself. You should ask, have you trained your officers? Have you helped them develop psychological resilience and the kind of emotional heartiness that is necessary to keep cool and calm even in the face of provocation?”[/INDENT] I see no evidence that the Ferguson Wannabe Army is doing anything remotely like best practice. Also, when the Ferguson police have interacted with the media in dubious ways, _the cops have refused to identify themselves_. That should tell you that the law isn’t their primary consideration. This is the 2nd example: pointing a rifle at a crowd comes easier to this officer than stating his name. The first example happened at McDonald’s a few days ago. ---
**Author:** ![not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_what_you_d_expect/32/3246_2.png) [@not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_what_you_d_expect)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1849 "2014-08-21T12:35:49Z")
I believe the cop who killed Brown was either scared or pissed. I wish I knew which one. A lack of training and an adversarial relationship with the people in the community is what is ultimately at fault here. One thing I will say, I doubt I would have had much sympathy for Mike Brown if it had been the clerk who shot him when Mike pushed him against the rack in the store. But I also think it’s possible that the cop bumped into Mike Brown with his car when he reversed in his direction and that scared Mike into reacting. We’ll probably never really know. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1850 "2014-08-21T12:38:19Z")
> [@JesterX](#): > > The dead one is ALWAYS the victim. This is simply wrong. If you truly feel this way, answer this: Do you think that [Tamerlan Tsarnaev](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dzhokhar_and_Tamerlan_Tsarnaev) is a victim? (The Boston Marathon bomber who died in a shootout with the police.) ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1851 "2014-08-21T13:27:32Z")
He was killed when his brother ran over him with the stolen SUV. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1852 "2014-08-21T13:37:39Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > This is simply wrong. (The above is in response to an insistence that “victim” refers to the person who was shot.) Can we all learn our language please? victim. (n.d.). _[Dictionary.com](http://Dictionary.com) Unabridged_. Retrieved August 21, 2014, from [Dictionary.com](http://Dictionary.com) website: [VICTIM Definition & Meaning | Dictionary.com](http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/victim) > [@dictionary.com](#): > > noun > > 1. a person who suffers from a destructive or injurious action or agency: a victim of an automobile accident. > 2. a person who is deceived or cheated, as by his or her own emotions or ignorance, by the dishonesty of others, or by some impersonal agency: a victim of misplaced confidence; the victim of a swindler; a victim of an optical illusion. > 3. a person or animal sacrificed or regarded as sacrificed: war victims. > 4. a living creature sacrificed in religious rites. Officer Wilson _may_ have been the **victim** of an assault by Michael Brown prior to his killing of Brown. Michael Brown was _absolutely and incontrovertibly_ the **victim** of the shooting incident. Both usages using definition 1 above. END PEDANTRY RESET DISCUSSION TO DEFAULT ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1853 "2014-08-21T13:46:31Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > (The above is in response to an insistence that “victim” refers to the person who was shot.) > > Can we all learn our language please? Something can literally be true but still be a completely dumb thing to say that indicates a person is totally missing the point. Michael Bloomberg’s anti-gun group included Tamerlane Tsarnaev’s name on a list of “gun violence victims” and there was justifiable outrage at this. Bloomberg later apologized. Should he have not apologized? Instead he should have read from his dictionary? ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1854 "2014-08-21T13:46:47Z")
What is happening to America? Here a Ferguson cop points his gun and threatens to kill non-violent protestors: [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/3AFia3Uo0TQ/hqdefault.jpg "Officer Go Fuck Yourself- Rebelutionary\_Z #Ferguson Livestream Clip") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AFia3Uo0TQ) While clicking on YouTube I first learned that two years ago a D.C. cop, Christopher Picciano, was fired for threatening to kill the First Lady [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/1Yi7PBjRSCA/maxresdefault.jpg "DC Police Officer Threatens to Kill Michelle Obama") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Yi7PBjRSCA) Why does the mostly-black community have a mostly-white police force? Interesting that an obvious recourse, Black voter registration, has been denounced by the right-wing. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1855 "2014-08-21T13:52:45Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Interesting that an obvious recourse, Black voter registration, has been denounced by the right-wing. When did that happen? ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1856 "2014-08-21T13:55:21Z")
> [@](#): > > Activists set up voter registration tables near a makeshift memorial for Brown and the QuikTrip convenience store that has become a gathering base for protesters. The efforts were organized by local clergy with the help of the Revs. Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson. > > Missouri Republican Party executive director Matt Wills called the actions “disgusting” and told Breitbart News the activists are “fanning the political flames.” > > “Injecting race into this conversation and into this tragedy, not only is not helpful, but it doesn’t help a continued conversation of justice and peace,” Willis told Breitbart News. > **[Missouri GOP Director Denounces Voter Registration Efforts In Ferguson](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/voter-registration-ferguson_n_5691997)** > > Missouri GOP Director Denounces Voter Registration Efforts In Ferguson ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1857 "2014-08-21T13:58:23Z")
nm ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1858 "2014-08-21T13:58:29Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > What is happening to America? > > Here a Ferguson cop points his gun and threatens to kill non-violent protestors: > [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AFia3Uo0TQ](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AFia3Uo0TQ) > > … Clearly, something happened in the minutes before the incident. Yet, they skillfully edited that part out of their video by starting at that particular point. If that cop came out of the blue and just threatened them for no reason, then he needs to be fired, but if they were making a Molotov cocktail and he saw it, or any of a hundred other things, that might make a difference. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1859 "2014-08-21T14:04:22Z")
> [@Missouri Republican Party executive director Matt Wills](#): > > Injecting race into this conversation and into this tragedy, not only is not helpful, but it doesn’t help a continued conversation of justice and peace No, of course not, we need to keep pretending this is now a “post-racial society” (we even have a Kenyan President!) so we can keep on doing the same shit we’ve always done. Sorry (not) that your party has lost a talking point, but that’s kinda how ignorance gets fought. When did race \*really \*come into this, Matt? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1860 "2014-08-21T14:05:52Z")
> [@](#): > > …but if they were making a Molotov cocktail and he saw it, or any of a hundred other things, that might make a difference. And the stuff that happens after the clip, like when the cop laughs and shows everybody that its a plastic toy from Wal-Mart, and yells “Psych!”. Lots of good-natured fun, there. Totally left that part out. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354.md?page=92) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354.md?page=94)