# Ferguson, MO **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 12, 2014, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354 "2014-08-12T04:51:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 94
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1861 "2014-08-21T14:15:34Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Why does the mostly-black community have a mostly-white police force? Interesting that an obvious recourse, Black voter registration, has been denounced by the right-wing. What does voter registration have to do with law enforcement demographics? “Police officer” isn’t an elected position. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1862 "2014-08-21T14:17:17Z")
“Hirer of police officers” is, though. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1863 "2014-08-21T14:27:20Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > …Officer Wilson _may_ have been the **victim** of an assault by Michael Brown prior to his killing of Brown. > > Michael Brown was _absolutely and incontrovertibly_ the **victim** of the shooting incident. And the store owners and employees are victims of the looters. The protesters are victims of the actions of the looters. The residents of Ferguson, Mo are victims of the outside agitators who came to Ferguson to taunt police and/or throw molatov cocktails and stones. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1864 "2014-08-21T14:28:57Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > Something can literally be true but still be a completely dumb thing to say that indicates a person is totally missing the point. > > Michael Bloomberg’s anti-gun group included Tamerlane Tsarnaev’s name on a list of “gun violence victims” and there was justifiable outrage at this. Bloomberg later apologized. Should he have not apologized? Instead he should have read from his dictionary? Tsarnaev was apparently the victim of an auto accident, not gun violence. He was also a mass murderer. Had he been shot to death, the FBI would have listed him as a homicide victim in the [Supplementary Homicide Report](http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/reporting-forms/supplementaryhomicidereport.pdf) (warning: pdf) of the Uniform Crime Reporting Program. His killing would’ve been in the category “justifiable killings of felons by a citizen or by a peace officer in the line of duty.” [Here are their guidelines](http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/summary_reporting_technical_specification_version_1.0_05-25-2012.pdf) (another pdf). Words mean what they mean and no one should apologize for calling Michael Brown a shooting victim. It’s not “completely dumb” or “missing the point” to use the word that way, and your attitude that someone killed by a cop in a shooting you think is justified _cannot_ be a victim says much more about you than about people who use the term correctly. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1865 "2014-08-21T14:29:18Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Interesting that an obvious recourse, Black voter registration, has been denounced by the right-wing. > [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > [Missouri GOP Director Denounces Voter Registration Efforts In Ferguson | HuffPost Latest News](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/19/voter-registration-ferguson_n_5691997.html) A later quote in that cite mentions GOP State Senator Ryan Silvey’s disagreement with the sentiment of Matt Wills. Can’t we at least say the right wing is split on the issue? ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1866 "2014-08-21T14:33:42Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > A later quote in that cite mentions GOP State Senator Ryan Silvey’s disagreement with the sentiment of Matt Wills. > > Can’t we at least say the right wing is split on the issue? Most likely in the same way that scientists are split on the issue of global warming. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1867 "2014-08-21T14:38:16Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > (The above is in response to an insistence that “victim” refers to the person who was shot.) > > Can we all learn our language please? > > victim. (n.d.). _[Dictionary.com](http://Dictionary.com) Unabridged_. Retrieved August 21, 2014, from [Dictionary.com](http://Dictionary.com) website: [VICTIM Definition & Meaning | Dictionary.com](http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/victim) > > Officer Wilson _may_ have been the **victim** of an assault by Michael Brown prior to his killing of Brown. > > Michael Brown was _absolutely and incontrovertibly_ the **victim** of the shooting incident. > > Both usages using definition 1 above. > > END PEDANTRY > RESET DISCUSSION TO DEFAULT If it wasn’t clear from context, the discussion was about who is the victim of crime. In the case of someone who is shot and killed in self defence, it is the shooter, not the deceased, who is the victim of the crime, and in a discussion about the legality - or for that matter morality - of the shooting, that is the relevant context. Using it in any other context is trying to gain sympathy for one side or other, rather than simply observing the facts. And in this case, there is pretty decent evidence that Wilson was the victim of a serious assault, leaving him with a fractured face. There is significantly less evidence that Brown was killed illegally. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1868 "2014-08-21T14:38:18Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > A later quote in that cite mentions GOP State Senator Ryan Silvey’s disagreement with the sentiment of Matt Wills. > > Can’t we at least say the right wing is split on the issue? I think we have no idea whether the right-wing is split on the issue, united behind Wills, or united behind Silvey. What we do know is that the head of the GOP in Missouri seems to be a racist, in that he thinks it was the black people who injected race into this controversy and that registering them to vote as a response to perceived police brutality is disgusting. Are you disturbed that the head of the GOP in Missouri holds these views? Are you disturbed that more Missouri GOP leaders haven’t spoken up about Wills’s comments? ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1869 "2014-08-21T14:44:35Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Using it in any other context is trying to gain sympathy for one side or other… Again, this belief says more about you than it does about the correct usage of the word or about the people who use the word correctly. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1870 "2014-08-21T14:44:56Z")
> [@JesterX](#): > > …You seem all too ready to presume Brown (and probably, Trayvon’s) guilt in finding their shootings justified. I mean, the shootings can’t be justified unless Brown and Martin were guilt of something, right? (post shortened) Trayvon? Martin? Are you basing your judgments of the incidents in Ferguson on your anger at the results of the Martin/Zimmerman debacle? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1871 "2014-08-21T14:54:13Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > Again, this belief says more about you than it does about the correct usage of the word or about the people who use the word correctly. Yes, it says I’m more interested in justice being done that whether people are upset by what happened. Nothing’s going to bring Michael Brown back, and treating Wilson like a criminal, not a victim, if it turns out he is innocent, only causes more damage. So, from a legal point of view, what was Brown the victim of? Bear in mind that it’s considered bad practice to refer to someone as a “victim” in court as it can prejudice the jury (as it has prejudiced you), not that that stops most prosecutors doing it. ---
**Author:** ![dba\_Fred](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c37758/32.png) [@dba\_Fred](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dba_Fred)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1872 "2014-08-21T14:56:16Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > oops… nm That’s the most (and _only_) intelligent post I’ve seen from you, **elucidator**. You should end all your posts with that. > [@elucidator](#): > > nm I like it better with the “oops”. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1873 "2014-08-21T15:23:04Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > And the stuff that happens after the clip, like when the cop laughs and shows everybody that its a plastic toy from Wal-Mart, and yells “Psych!”. Lots of good-natured fun, there. Totally left that part out. As long as you’re content making up your mind on an issue with less than all the information. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1874 "2014-08-21T15:24:58Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > Most likely in the same way that scientists are split on the issue of global warming. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1875 "2014-08-21T15:28:23Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > I think we have no idea whether the right-wing is split on the issue, united behind Wills, or united behind Silvey. > > What we do know is that the head of the GOP in Missouri seems to be a racist, in that he thinks it was the black people who injected race into this controversy and that registering them to vote as a response to perceived police brutality is disgusting. > > Are you disturbed that the head of the GOP in Missouri holds these views? Are you disturbed that more Missouri GOP leaders haven’t spoken up about Wills’s comments? I’m not disturbed at the lack of reaction, because I don’t see a lot of publicity for the remark, and while I suppose he’s a heavyweight in Missouri, I that that of 20 random people surveyed on the streets of Ferguson, none would have heard of him. He sounds like an idiot,but of idiots there is no shortage anywhere. I just object to the practice of finding a single idiot in the GOP and ascribing to him all the views of the right wing. ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1876 "2014-08-21T15:35:59Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I’m not disturbed at the lack of reaction, because I don’t see a lot of publicity for the remark, and while I suppose he’s a heavyweight in Missouri, I that that of 20 random people surveyed on the streets of Ferguson, none would have heard of him. > > He sounds like an idiot,but of idiots there is no shortage anywhere. I just object to the practice of finding a single idiot in the GOP and ascribing to him all the views of the right wing. If only it were but a single idiot. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1877 "2014-08-21T15:46:10Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I just object to the practice of finding a single idiot in the GOP and ascribing to him all the views of the right wing. How about finding a state \*executive director \*(something that you have known since he was first mentioned) and ascribing to the party the views of those who chose him for that position? :dubious: This isn’t even good weaseling. To repeat **Richard** ’s question, does that bother you? ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1878 "2014-08-21T15:54:04Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Yes, it says I’m more interested in justice being done… I have a problem with this resistance to descriptive terms which threaten to bring nuance into people’s points of view. This is the same discussion that was had at the beginning of this thread, initiated by **Terr** , about whether one can “understand” actions and their contexts without justifying them or practicing them (or being willing to) oneself. We’re just arguing about a different term now, but the sense is exactly the same. _I can understand Michael Brown as the “victim” of the shooting without denying any aspects of what Darren Wilson went through that day._ This characteristic of human thought is called “empathy” and it’s part of our species’ uncanny ability to place ourselves mentally in circumstances other than our real and current ones. That ability accounts for the advances in thinking which have given us technology, science, philosophy, religion, all forms of art and the internet through which we’re arguing on this message board. But you reject empathic understanding of events because you feel they “bias” the discussion and may lead to incorrect applications of justice. I saw the same shit immediately after 9/11 when all discussions of the roots and reasons for jihadist terrorism were condemned and hijacked by posters proclaiming ‘no sympathy for terrorists!’ and creating threads which promoted a deliberately ignorant approach to foreign policy. I’m pissed off about this -frankly cretinous- thinking because it leads to social conditions like militarized police forces which operate like occupiers projecting the authority of the state rather than officers of law. It leads to unspeakably incompetent national responses like the Iraq invasion, which was handled so poorly by the Bush administration because they did not see the value of understanding what they were trying to deal with. The differences between Sunni and Shia, the history of the Baathists, the political and ethnic tensions inside the federal system of Iraq were all irrelevant to their “strategies.” They thought they’d create their own reality through sheer badassery. It’s knuckle-dragger thinking. Those who reject empathy are missing something. This is not a difference between philosophies, this is a deficit some people exhibit. If others sometimes seem condescending to you when we try to describe how a group you despise might be thinking or how an event might rationally be viewed by others, it’s because **you** force the conversation tactics in that direction. You shut down or maneuver around any consideration of other points of view because you see such considerations as _sympathizing_ or _justifying_ those points of view. This forces the clarifications into simplistic breakdowns and tortured hypotheticals to try and force your thinking into a very basic, effective and _human_ technique for understanding the world around you. And yet you think you are the realists and those who see nuance are softheaded. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1879 "2014-08-21T15:59:39Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Cite? “One GOP politician disagrees with a sentiment expressed by a party director and approvingly published in several prominent conservative blogs and newsletters” **IS TO** “the GOP is split on this issue” \*\*AS \*\* “several scientists outside of any climatology related discipline disagree with the anthropogenic global warming consensus of the scientific community” **IS TO** “scientists are split on global warming.” ---
**Author:** ![JesterX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/439d5e/32.png) [@JesterX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JesterX)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1880 "2014-08-21T16:07:06Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > (post shortened) > > Trayvon? Martin? Are you basing your judgments of the incidents in Ferguson on your anger at the results of the Martin/Zimmerman debacle? I was responding to a post to me. I base my judgments on logic. And I can draw a particular conclusion even if I don’t like that conclusion. Unlike others, who clearly base their conclusions on who they want to come out on top. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354.md?page=93) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354.md?page=95)