# Ferguson, MO **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 12, 2014, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354 "2014-08-12T04:51:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 96
**Author:** ![JesterX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/439d5e/32.png) [@JesterX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JesterX)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1901 "2014-08-21T17:58:03Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > I am white. I had some interactions with police over the last 30 years or so. Not once had the interaction started with “Sir, would you mind…”. Do you think it’s because the policemen saw me as just another thug? That brings up a valid point. Blacks (my people) do have this misconception that cops ONLY treat us badly. I have quite a few white friends who’ve had bad experiences with cops (harassment, being falsely accused, being manhandled, etc.). There are also a number of questionable deaths of white people around the country at the hands of cops. But whenever I try to bring that up in conversation when I’m with other blacks, I get shouted down. Lol. People just want to believe what they want to believe. ---
**Author:** ![filmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7993a0/32.png) [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1902 "2014-08-21T18:00:15Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Various. From a long-haired 18-yo to 40-yo average guy. Police just do not start conversations with me with “Sir, would you mind…”. Or with anyone else I have ever heard. It was just an example not meant to be taken literally. Even if a policeman has never uttered the words “Sir, would you mind…” it doesn’t change the fact that the policeman can address you in a respectful or disrespectful manner. If the policeman doesn’t view you as a threat, likely he’ll address you respectfully. But whether or not you’re a threat should be based on something other than skin color. It’s interesting you mentioned having long hair. I had a friend who had long hair when he grew up and he said he was stopped a lot when driving. Then when he cut his hair, he hardly ever got stopped. He didn’t change how he was driving, but the police didn’t see him as a threat anymore. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1903 "2014-08-21T18:02:20Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > …Likely, Brown’s interactions throughout life with police had been negative. So when Wilson approached him, _ **Brown saw it as another policeman giving him a hard time** _. Because of this Brown reacts more defensively and aggressively than the situation warrants. Not to say that his reaction is justified, but it’s not surprising given the culture. Brown was also aware the he had stolen cigars in his possession, that he had just robbed a store, and that he had violently manhandled a clerk in the store. But you believe that Brown only thought the police officer was going to give him a hard time??? Do you define “hard time” as being arrested for strong armed robbery? ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1904 "2014-08-21T18:02:54Z")
My experience with cops, FWIW, is that they tend to be polite in their initial contact (unless they’re in some stressful situation at the time). I don’t know about “sir, would you mind …” - that’s a bit much - but fairly polite. But if they sense that their authority is being taken lightly or disrespected, they can get very obnoxious in a hurry. [Of course, this is a generalization based on my experience and does not apply to all cops, many of whom are among of the finest people alive etc. etc. etc.] ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1905 "2014-08-21T18:09:32Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > OK. I’ll gratuitously deny your assertion that it’s only a small fringe of GOPers who are sympathetic to the sentiment. Because it really fits in seamlessly with the otherwise well documented GOP disdain for voter registration efforts and policies which tend to increase voter turnout (early voting, vote-by-mail, expanded voting hours, more polling places, etc.) You never did any kind of formal debate, did you? It’s the first gratuitous assertion which may be denied without requiring a cite. That means if you make a gratuitous assertion, I can equally deny it. My denial, without proof, is just as good as your original claim, without proof. So we start at the beginning. What’s the cite for the original claim? To remind you, the original claim was: “Interesting that an obvious recourse, Black voter registration, has been denounced by the right-wing.” Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1906 "2014-08-21T18:09:36Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > It was just an example not meant to be taken literally. Even if a policeman has never uttered the words “Sir, would you mind…” it doesn’t change the fact that the policeman can address you in a respectful or disrespectful manner. If the policeman doesn’t view you as a threat, likely he’ll address you respectfully. But whether or not you’re a threat should be based on something other than skin color. > > It’s interesting you mentioned having long hair. I had a friend who had long hair when he grew up and he said he was stopped a lot when driving. Then when he cut his hair, he hardly ever got stopped. He didn’t change how he was driving, but the police didn’t see him as a threat anymore. As **Fotheringay** said, the initial contact with police is usually very businesslike. As in “Get off the roadway”. “Move your car”. Or (as I remember when stopped driving in Kenilworth, IL in the 80s) “What is your business here?”. And if you do not mouth off to the policeman, it stays that way. If you do, or if you don’t follow instructions (I was smart enough to not do that, but I saw what happened to friends who did - white ones), the policeman becomes pretty impolite pretty fast. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1907 "2014-08-21T18:11:03Z")
> [@JesterX](#): > > That brings up a valid point. Blacks (my people) do have this misconception that cops ONLY treat us badly. I have quite a few white friends who’ve had bad experiences with cops (harassment, being falsely accused, being manhandled, etc.). There are also a number of questionable deaths of white people around the country at the hands of cops. > > But whenever I try to bring that up in conversation when I’m with other blacks, I get shouted down. Lol. People just want to believe what they want to believe. Maybe, but there’s no question that we white people feel less threatened by potential interactions with cops than blacks do. Everyone knows about The Talk that black parents give their sons about how to behave in an encounter with the law in order to not wind up dead. How many white families have The Talk? Very few, I’d expect. I’ve only heard about it as a black survival mechanism. Yes, whites have been killed by police in this country under questionable circumstances, but it’s exceptional enough that by and large, whites don’t worry about it happening to them. Hippie protesters might get beaten up by the cops, but rarely shot, and one can avoid that by not participating in protests. One shouldn’t have to make that choice to avoid being beaten, but it IS an available choice. Blacks, OTOH, have to worry about the outcome of being stopped by police at random moments in their lives. ---
**Author:** ![chargerrich](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chargerrich/32/5399_2.png) [@chargerrich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chargerrich)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1908 "2014-08-21T18:11:03Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Are we to take it, then, that you find Mr Johnson to be a credible witness, generally speaking? A “truthteller”, as it were? I have read almost every post in this thread and have to ask a serious question about elucidator; are you just trolling? I cannot understand how anyone could take anything you say on this subject seriously. So we can now add the victim’s friend to the list of liars and the corrupt along with ANYONE else that says anything that contradicts your tinfoil hat grand conspiracy? Your responses are so myopic - and in many cases devoid of reason - that they are at times comical. You just keep waving away any evidence or even the notion that anything other than your conclusion that a “racist murderous cop sought out an African American victim” might have happened, despite no motive other than “bad racist cop”. What evidence supports this that made up your mind while at the same time had you discount every other piece of information that contradicts this? While I personally think the cop panicked/was scared for his life, is not a great example of an officer and may even have some culpability (facts are not all in yet), there is a mountain of information rolling in that the victim was not this innocent and passive kid who was just trying to surrender so he could still attend college on Monday. I am amazed at the apparent fact that at least a few people posting here actually believe that an officer with no recorded history or complaints of abuse just decided that he wanted to kill for purely for reasons of race and blood lust. There is a lot we do not know, but to automatically exclude every shred of evidence and information that makes that look improbable to impossible is mind boggling. ---
**Author:** ![filmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7993a0/32.png) [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1909 "2014-08-21T18:15:08Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Brown was also aware the he had stolen cigars in his possession, that he had just robbed a store, and that he had violently manhandled a clerk in the store. > > But you believe that Brown only thought the police officer was going to give him a hard time??? Do you define “hard time” as being arrested for strong armed robbery? I’m not saying Brown is a saint, but likely his past interactions with the police would influence how he would anticipate this interaction would go. If his past interactions had been positive, then he may think Wilson would just ask him to move out of the street. But if they had been negative, then he would think Wilson was going to hassle him regardless of whether he knew about the robbery. In any event, I think the shooting was probably justified in that particular situation. But I’m arguing that the aggressive situation was a result of systemic racism in that environment. For example, if I see a lose dog, there are many ways I can try to capture it with many different outcomes. If I run after it and chase it down, it will likely react aggressively and attack, and I may be forced to hurt it. I would be justified in protecting myself, but the aggressive situation was partly created by me. If instead I approached cautiously and friendly, the dog may come right to me. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1910 "2014-08-21T18:15:49Z")
[Some interesting background on Ferguson](http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2014/08/ferguson-and-the-debtors-prison.html), from Arch City Defenders, via economist Alex Tabarrok: > [@](#): > > Ferguson is a city located in northern St. Louis County with 21,203 residents living in 8,192 households. The majority (67%) of residents are African-American…22% of residents live below the poverty level. > > …Despite Ferguson’s relative poverty, fines and court fees comprise the second largest source of revenue for the city, a total of $2,635,400. In 2013, the Ferguson Municipal Court disposed of 24,532 warrants and 12,018 cases, or about 3 warrants and 1.5 cases per household. > > You don’t get $321 in fines and fees and 3 warrants per household from an about-average crime rate. You get numbers like this from bullshit arrests for jaywalking and constant “low level harassment involving traffic stops, court appearances, high fines, and the threat of jail for failure to pay.” ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1911 "2014-08-21T18:19:05Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > [Some interesting background on Ferguson](http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2014/08/ferguson-and-the-debtors-prison.html), from Arch City Defenders, via economist Alex Tabarrok: Ferguson is right next to the St. Louis International Airport. I bet most of those “fines and traffic fees” are speeding tickets, and given to outsiders. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1912 "2014-08-21T18:24:38Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > You never did any kind of formal debate, did you? ROFL! Is \*that \*what you think the Pit is? 😃 > [@](#): > > To remind you, the original claim was: “Interesting that an obvious recourse, Black voter registration, has been denounced by the right-wing.” > > Cite? The fact that, as had already been posted, the statement was made by your party’s state Executive Director. A fact which you have yet to acknowledge, instead calling him, in your typical weaselism, “a single idiot in the GOP”. Yes, every idiot in the GOP is a single person. :rolleyes: The first \*gratuitous \*claim, _yours_, was that the right wing is “split”, by implication roughly evenly. You have yet to support it, therefore, by the rules of formal debate, you lose. ---
**Author:** ![fachverwirrt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/94ad74/32.png) [@fachverwirrt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fachverwirrt)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1913 "2014-08-21T18:30:48Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Ferguson is right next to the St. Louis International Airport. I bet most of those “fines and traffic fees” are speeding tickets, and given to outsiders. There’s nothing particularly worth going to in the St. Louis area that would require one to drive through Ferguson from the airport. There aren’t any particularly large roads passing through it either. ---
**Author:** ![GrandWino](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grandwino/32/67_2.png) [@GrandWino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrandWino)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1914 "2014-08-21T18:37:04Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > [Some interesting background on Ferguson](http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2014/08/ferguson-and-the-debtors-prison.html), from Arch City Defenders, via economist Alex Tabarrok: I expect most municipalities make a majority of their revenue via fines and court fees. Nothing strange about that to me. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1915 "2014-08-21T18:47:39Z")
> [@dba\_Fred](#): > > That’s the most (and _only_) intelligent post I’ve seen from you, **elucidator**. You should end all your posts with that. > > I like it better with the “oops”. Bereft. Inconsolable. Another night of crying myself to sleep clutching my banky… ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1916 "2014-08-21T18:50:57Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Bereft. Inconsolable. Another night of crying myself to sleep clutching my banky… You should have taken **Fred’s** advice. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1917 "2014-08-21T18:57:24Z")
> [@GrandWino](#): > > I expect most municipalities make a majority of their revenue via fines and court fees. Nothing strange about that to me. I would be extremely surprised if that’s true. But OTOH, the claim being made is not that Ferguson makes the majority of its revenue from fines and court fees. The claim is that it’s the second largest source, and the percentage of revenue that comes from these sources (or from the largest source) is unspecified. Absent that info, the claim is meaningless and lacks any sort of context. It’s not like municipalities have dozens of major revenue sources. After property taxes, there’s not much left. Fines and court fees is one, and payment for various services (e.g. at the inspection department) would be another, but I can’t think of much else - I would not be surprised if fines and court fees are typically the second largest part of the budget. In addition, the claim that Ferguson has an “about-average crime rate” is bogus, as can be seen at the [very source that the cite links to](http://www.city-data.com/crime/crime-Ferguson-Missouri.html). Bottom line is that that “analysis” is just something for True Believers to salivate over before running to breathlessly post to their favorite message board, but not worth much otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1918 "2014-08-21T18:59:03Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > I’m not saying Brown is a saint, but likely his past interactions with the police would influence how he would anticipate this interaction would go. If his past interactions had been positive, then he may think Wilson would just ask him to move out of the street. But if they had been negative, then he would think Wilson was going to hassle him regardless of whether he knew about the robbery. (post shortened) Past interaction? How much experience did Brown have being stopped by police when he was in possession of stolen merchandise or had just been involved in a strong arm robbery? None that I’m aware of. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1919 "2014-08-21T19:01:54Z")
> [@GrandWino](#): > > I expect most municipalities make a majority of their revenue via fines and court fees. Nothing strange about that to me. If you don’t have the property or sales tax base to fund your town, and it’s located within the metro area of a major city, then you probably shouldn’t exist as a town. The example I’m most familiar with is [Linndale, Ohio](http://www.cleveland.com/tipoff/index.ssf/2013/08/linndale_the_tiny_village_know.html), a village that existed solely to prey on motorists traveling to and from Cleveland, until Ohio passed a law requiring a minimum of 200 residents to have a mayor’s court. It represents a kind of local tyranny. ---
**Author:** ![Sinaptics](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Sinaptics](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaptics)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1920 "2014-08-21T19:04:52Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > From the same Politico article you linked, the AP and the St Louis Post-Dispatch must also be attempting to try the case in the press. > > \*It has since been learned that Wilson is 28 years old and was born in Texas. The Associated Press has reported that he has Missouri hunting and fishing licenses, and that he owns a home in Crestwood, a suburb less than 20 miles southwest of Ferguson. > > The St. Louis Post-Dispatch reported that Wilson bought the home in October 2013 with his girlfriend, a fellow police officer named Barbara\* > > [http://www.politico.com/story/2014/08/darren-wilson-video-award-ferguson-110213.html?hp=r5](http://www.politico.com/story/2014/08/darren-wilson-video-award-ferguson-110213.html?hp=r5) One of these things is not like the other. The AP and St. Louis Post were just doing investigative reporting, if they would have uncovered the award, it wouldn’t be any big deal. However, the city, who refused to release even the most minor details about the incident is bending over backwards trying to make Brown look bad and Wilson look good. As far as I’m aware, this is what the city has released so far: 1. Officer’s name after 6 days (somewhat understandable given safety issues) 2. That Brown apparently was part of a robbery prior to the altercation with Wilson (which we’ve argued considerably over and overall has little bearing on what happened next) 3. That Brown had pot in his system (no indication of how much, but really, who’s surprised?) 4. That Wilson was injured in the altercation (but won’t say exactly how except an uncorroborated source that said he had an orbital fracture). 5. That Wilson once won an award (for something completely unrelated). Seems to me they’re trying to set impressions prior to the release of actual evidence. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354.md?page=95) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354.md?page=97)