# Ferguson, MO **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 12, 2014, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354 "2014-08-12T04:51:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 97
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1921 "2014-08-21T19:11:10Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > The example I’m most familiar with is [Linndale, Ohio](http://www.cleveland.com/tipoff/index.ssf/2013/08/linndale_the_tiny_village_know.html), a village that existed solely to prey on motorists traveling to and from Cleveland, until Ohio passed a law requiring a minimum of 200 residents to have a mayor’s court. Are you referring to the law giving [New Rome](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Rome,_Ohio) the death penalty? > [@](#): > > It represents a kind of local tyranny. More like petty highway robbery. Literally. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1922 "2014-08-21T19:31:20Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Are you referring to the law giving [New Rome](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Rome,_Ohio) the death penalty? No, that was done by Franklin County in 2004. The law I referred to was passed last year. ---
**Author:** ![BubbaDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bubbadog/32/333_2.png) [@BubbaDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BubbaDog)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1923 "2014-08-21T19:38:21Z")
> [@Sinaptics](#): > > … > Seems to me they’re trying to set impressions prior to the release of actual evidence. While all of the protesters, Brown family, media, political limelighters etc aren’t? ---
**Author:** ![Sinaptics](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Sinaptics](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaptics)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1924 "2014-08-21T19:44:59Z")
> [@BubbaDog](#): > > While all of the protesters, Brown family, media, political limelighters etc aren’t? You’re seriously comparing private citizens to the government? Are private citizens holding back pertinent information? Nobody sees a pattern or has an issue with it? I tend to like my government impartial. I don’t appreciate them trying to poison the well when they may have been at fault. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1925 "2014-08-21T19:53:49Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Maybe, but there’s no question that we white people feel less threatened by potential interactions with cops than blacks do. Everyone knows about The Talk that black parents give their sons about how to behave in an encounter with the law in order to not wind up dead. How many white families have The Talk? Very few, I’d expect. I’ve only heard about it as a black survival mechanism. Speaking as one whitish guy I know, I’ve definitely emphasized to my kids - nothing as formalized as “The Talk”, but when it comes up in discussions - that in interactions with police you need to be polite and respectful and make sure the cop doesn’t feel like he’s losing face. True, I’m not worried about my kids ending up shot by the cop - it’s more about them possibly getting charged with interfering with police work or the like, or possibly having the book thrown at them with all sorts of technically-letter-of-the-law violations, due to the cop getting ticked at some wise-guy remark. But that’s largely because I am not concerned that my kids might be provoked into something like punching the cop in the face, for example. If I thought that was a possibility, then I would be concerned about them being shot too. I would guess a lot of white people are in the same category. (Or should be, anyway.) ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1926 "2014-08-21T19:57:46Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > You are a fucking liar. > > Regards, > Shodan I may exaggerate when I’m drunk, but in the morning I’ll be sober. Tomorrow morning you will still be a pretentious dullard. ---
**Author:** ![Neo-Calredic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/96bed5/32.png) [@Neo-Calredic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neo-Calredic)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1927 "2014-08-21T19:59:02Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > I have a problem with this resistance to descriptive terms which threaten to bring nuance into people’s points of view. This is the same discussion that was had at the beginning of this thread, initiated by **Terr** , about whether one can “understand” actions and their contexts without justifying them or practicing them (or being willing to) oneself. We’re just arguing about a different term now, but the sense is exactly the same. > > _I can understand Michael Brown as the “victim” of the shooting without denying any aspects of what Darren Wilson went through that day._ This characteristic of human thought is called “empathy” and it’s part of our species’ uncanny ability to place ourselves mentally in circumstances other than our real and current ones. That ability accounts for the advances in thinking which have given us technology, science, philosophy, religion, all forms of art and the internet through which we’re arguing on this message board. > > But you reject empathic understanding of events because you feel they “bias” the discussion and may lead to incorrect applications of justice. I saw the same shit immediately after 9/11 when all discussions of the roots and reasons for jihadist terrorism were condemned and hijacked by posters proclaiming ‘no sympathy for terrorists!’ and creating threads which promoted a deliberately ignorant approach to foreign policy. > > I’m pissed off about this -frankly cretinous- thinking because it leads to social conditions like militarized police forces which operate like occupiers projecting the authority of the state rather than officers of law. It leads to unspeakably incompetent national responses like the Iraq invasion, which was handled so poorly by the Bush administration because they did not see the value of understanding what they were trying to deal with. The differences between Sunni and Shia, the history of the Baathists, the political and ethnic tensions inside the federal system of Iraq were all irrelevant to their “strategies.” They thought they’d create their own reality through sheer badassery. > > It’s knuckle-dragger thinking. Those who reject empathy are missing something. This is not a difference between philosophies, this is a deficit some people exhibit. If others sometimes seem condescending to you when we try to describe how a group you despise might be thinking or how an event might rationally be viewed by others, it’s because **you** force the conversation tactics in that direction. You shut down or maneuver around any consideration of other points of view because you see such considerations as _sympathizing_ or _justifying_ those points of view. This forces the clarifications into simplistic breakdowns and tortured hypotheticals to try and force your thinking into a very basic, effective and _human_ technique for understanding the world around you. > > And yet you think you are the realists and those who see nuance are softheaded. xenophon41, I’ve been a lurker on this board for over 10 years, and – for what it’s worth – I just wanted to say this is one of the best posts I’ve ever read here. Awesomely done. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1928 "2014-08-21T20:01:33Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > You never did any kind of formal debate, did you? > > It’s the first gratuitous assertion which may be denied without requiring a cite. That means if you make a gratuitous assertion, I can equally deny it. My denial, without proof, is just as good as your original claim, without proof. > > So we start at the beginning. What’s the cite for the original claim? To remind you, the original claim was: “Interesting that an obvious recourse, Black voter registration, has been denounced by the right-wing.” > > Cite? Never paid much attention in informal debates, have you? First point: that wasn’t my claim, it was from another poster, **septimus**. Second point: your request for a cite from **septimus** was answered three minutes later with a citation provided by **Richard Parker**. Third point: There are other citations available and easily found, but they all revolve around various “+1” responses to the original comment by the Missouri GOP official and are easily found with a simple Google search. You can deny those confirming cites exist to your heart’s content, but that’s not going to make **septimus** , **Richard Parker** or me look as silly as it makes you look. Fourth and last point: your request to me in response to my analogy was, in its entirety “Cite?” Since I have strong reason to believe you’re _not_ of low intelligence, rather than provide a citation for another use of that analogy, I decided you probably wanted me to flesh it out a bit. So I did. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1929 "2014-08-21T20:07:03Z")
> [@Sinaptics](#): > > …However, the city, who refused to release even the most minor details about the incident is bending over backwards trying to make Brown look bad and Wilson look good. The DA’s office is still conducting a criminal investigation of the officer and there is the grand jury to consider. The DA controls what info gets released and when it gets released. I assume the strong armed robbery case had been closed before the video was released to the public. And the media legal teams have been demanding the release of every bit of information (FOIA) the police had because that’s what they do. ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1930 "2014-08-21T20:09:52Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > There are many stories of people hassled for “Driving While Black” or “Standing While Black”. That type of environment creates a culture where the police and minorities view each other as the enemy and these types of outcomes are unavoidable. The riots are a reaction to the state of the police and minority relations, not specifically to the Brown shooting. Difference between driving while white and black I vaguely remember a Tonight Show where Keenan Wayans and Josh Hartnett were the guests. Hartnett is telling a story about being pulled over for speeding before he was famous. He says he talked the cop into letting him go by explaining he’s speeding because was on his way his girlfriend’s to “get some”. C’mon officer. Wayans just shakes his head and (I can’t remember exactly) jokes something about how he didn’t think that would work for black men and riffs “C’mon officer, let my black ass go ‘cause I’m just tryin’ to get me some.” Wish I could find the clip. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1931 "2014-08-21T20:12:18Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > Never paid much attention in informal debates, have you? > > First point: that wasn’t my claim, it was from another poster, **septimus**. > > Second point: your request for a cite from **septimus** was answered three minutes later with a citation provided by **Richard Parker**. > > Third point: There are other citations available and easily found, but they all revolve around various “+1” responses to the original comment by the Missouri GOP official and are easily found with a simple Google search. You can deny those confirming cites exist to your heart’s content, but that’s not going to make **septimus** , **Richard Parker** or me look as silly as it makes you look. > > Fourth and last point: your request to me in response to my analogy was, in its entirety “Cite?” Since I have strong reason to believe you’re _not_ of low intelligence, rather than provide a citation for another use of that analogy, I decided you probably wanted me to flesh it out a bit. So I did. It’s true that **septimus** started the original claim. i assumed, since you jumped on the bandwagon, you were endorsing it. **Richard Parker** ’s cite was to one person, which produced the rebuttal of an opposing view from another GOP member and a question from me that asked, since the score seems to be tied at 1-1, we could agree that it’s not a universal position of the right wing. And while there are other citations to be found, they are not uniform – that is, just as Idiot Number One is not alone, neither is Calm-Headed State Senator Number One. None of the citations provided thus far suggest that the right wing is monolithically denouncing black voter registration. ---
**Author:** ![Sinaptics](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Sinaptics](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaptics)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1932 "2014-08-21T20:16:10Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > The DA’s office is still conducting a criminal investigation of the officer and there is the grand jury to consider. The DA controls what info gets released and when it gets released. I assume the strong armed robbery case had been closed before the video was released to the public. And the media legal teams have been demanding the release of every bit of information (FOIA) the police had because that’s what they do. You are probably right and I withdraw my criticism. It appears that press got wind of it through the father’s FB page and probably FOIA’d the rest of the information. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1933 "2014-08-21T20:19:38Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > None of the citations provided thus far suggest that the right wing is monolithically denouncing black voter registration. But that wasn’t the claim. Indeed, parties almost never monolithically do anything. When the most senior GOP party official in the relevant state makes a statement, it is entirely fair to conclude that it is his party’s position on the subject. Other inferences are also possible, but your suggestion that this is not a reasonable inference is silly. It is perfectly reasonable. If your position is that the head of the GOP in MO does not represent GOP opinion on this subject, then defend your position. The burden is quite fairly placed on you at this point. I don’t think a single dissenting state senator out of hundreds of local GOP politicians quite gets you there. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1934 "2014-08-21T20:21:08Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > None of the citations provided thus far suggest that the right wing is monolithically denouncing black voter registration. As always, you’re welcome to try and get someone to debate that point with you. I’ve had to work a little bit for my original little post, and I feel I’ve paid adequately for the snark privilege. So someone else will have to provide the argument to you. (This room is labelled “The BBQ Pit” hence “ABUSE”. “ARGUMENTS” is two forums over.) ---
**Author:** ![JesterX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/439d5e/32.png) [@JesterX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JesterX)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1935 "2014-08-21T20:35:01Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > **But that’s largely because I am not concerned that my kids might be provoked into something like punching the cop in the face, for example.** Uhm, believe it or not but most black people actually aren’t very concerned with that, either. Even the hardest, hardened criminal (of ANY ethnic background) generally knows not to attack a cop. If, for no other reason, than most criminals know it’s a fight they just can’t win. ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1936 "2014-08-21T20:38:37Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > I have a problem with this resistance to descriptive terms which threaten to bring nuance into people’s points of view. This is the same discussion that was had at the beginning of this thread, initiated by **Terr** , about whether one can “understand” actions and their contexts without justifying them or practicing them (or being willing to) oneself. We’re just arguing about a different term now, but the sense is exactly the same. > > _I can understand Michael Brown as the “victim” of the shooting without denying any aspects of what Darren Wilson went through that day._ This characteristic of human thought is called “empathy” and it’s part of our species’ uncanny ability to place ourselves mentally in circumstances other than our real and current ones. That ability accounts for the advances in thinking which have given us technology, science, philosophy, religion, all forms of art and the internet through which we’re arguing on this message board. > > But you reject empathic understanding of events because you feel they “bias” the discussion and may lead to incorrect applications of justice. I saw the same shit immediately after 9/11 when all discussions of the roots and reasons for jihadist terrorism were condemned and hijacked by posters proclaiming ‘no sympathy for terrorists!’ and creating threads which promoted a deliberately ignorant approach to foreign policy. > > I’m pissed off about this -frankly cretinous- thinking because it leads to social conditions like militarized police forces which operate like occupiers projecting the authority of the state rather than officers of law. It leads to unspeakably incompetent national responses like the Iraq invasion, which was handled so poorly by the Bush administration because they did not see the value of understanding what they were trying to deal with. The differences between Sunni and Shia, the history of the Baathists, the political and ethnic tensions inside the federal system of Iraq were all irrelevant to their “strategies.” They thought they’d create their own reality through sheer badassery. > > It’s knuckle-dragger thinking. Those who reject empathy are missing something. This is not a difference between philosophies, this is a deficit some people exhibit. If others sometimes seem condescending to you when we try to describe how a group you despise might be thinking or how an event might rationally be viewed by others, it’s because **you** force the conversation tactics in that direction. You shut down or maneuver around any consideration of other points of view because you see such considerations as _sympathizing_ or _justifying_ those points of view. This forces the clarifications into simplistic breakdowns and tortured hypotheticals to try and force your thinking into a very basic, effective and _human_ technique for understanding the world around you. > > And yet you think you are the realists and those who see nuance are softheaded. > [@Neo-Calredic](#): > > xenophon41, I’ve been a lurker on this board for over 10 years, and – for what it’s worth – I just wanted to say this is one of the best posts I’ve ever read here. Awesomely done. +1 From another (mostly) lurker. I’d like to see a similarly thoughtful reply from those who disagree. Unfortunately posts like this tend to get lost in the snark and grudge match frenzy. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1937 "2014-08-21T20:42:05Z")
> [@JesterX](#): > > Uhm, believe it or not but most black people actually aren’t very concerned with that, either. Even the hardest, hardened criminal (of ANY ethnic background) generally knows not to attack a cop. If, for no other reason, than most criminals know it’s a fight they just can’t win. Makes sense to me. Although you do see it happen every so often - sometimes people know things but don’t act accordingly in the heat of the moment. I would note that earlier in this thread (post #1610, to be specific) xenophon41 seemed to suggest that it might be common for people to have cop-punchers in their families. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1938 "2014-08-21T20:43:33Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > (This room is labelled “The BBQ Pit” hence “ABUSE”. “ARGUMENTS” is two forums over.) No, seven. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1939 "2014-08-21T20:52:34Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > But that wasn’t the claim. Indeed, parties almost never monolithically do anything. > > When the most senior GOP party official in the relevant state makes a statement, it is entirely fair to conclude that it is his party’s position on the subject. Other inferences are also possible, but your suggestion that this is not a reasonable inference is silly. It is perfectly reasonable. > > If your position is that the head of the GOP in MO does not represent GOP opinion on this subject, then defend your position. The burden is quite fairly placed on you at this point. I don’t think a single dissenting state senator out of hundreds of local GOP politicians quite gets you there. OK. Here’s the problem. He made the statement in an interview. So far as I can tell, there is no policy position, no press release, no document supporting it. For this reason, no one else is offering a comment on it. But fine. I’ll accept the rule that he makes a statement in an interview, and the entire GOP party of Missouri is saddled with it. How is that fairly described as “the right wing?” Moreover, how is his statement fairly characterized by **septimus** ’ statement? Wills was asked about the activists who “… set up voter registration tables near a makeshift memorial for Brown and the QuikTrip convenience store that has become a gathering base for protesters.” He said, according to the interviewer, that the actions were disgusting and fanned the political flames. “Injecting race into this conversation and into this tragedy, not only is not helpful, but it doesn’t help a continued conversation of justice and peace,” he evidently said. **septimus** said, “Interesting that an obvious recourse, Black voter registration, has been denounced by the right-wing.” Now, it’s possible that Wills meant to say that he believed black voters shouldn’t register to vote. But since the issue he was asked about was not generic voter registration efforts, but rather the specific effort to set up a registration tent at the spot of the memorial of the death, why must his comment also be assumed to reach to black voter registration, period? In other words, one comment from one person not only can be imputed to the entire right-wing movement, but also gets parsed in the most damaging way possible. Why is that? It seems like an unfair system to me, somehow. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/1940 "2014-08-21T20:52:53Z")
> [@Neo-Calredic](#): > > xenophon41, \<_kudos snipped_\> Thanks for the attaboy, sincerely. But you don’t wanna do too much of that; my hat tends to get tight on these rare occasions and I begin to worry about how I’m saying instead of what I’m saying. Glad you liked what I said. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354.md?page=96) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354.md?page=98)