# Ferguson- the elephant in the room **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 26, 2014, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-the-elephant-in-the-room/705655 "2014-11-26T07:01:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-the-elephant-in-the-room/705655/181 "2014-11-26T23:07:31Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Read the article…it talks about who is armed and who isn’t which was the point I was getting at. Yes, I did. You are making, it seems to me, a distinction between sergeants and officers (and by inference some sort of lower rank that doesn’t get guns) that doesn’t really exist. It’s not a military structure. Firearms officers of all ranks in the UK are trained and screened constantly. They don’t hand out weapons to Billy-Bob “Fatarse” Racist just because he’s got a badge. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-the-elephant-in-the-room/705655/182 "2014-11-26T23:10:33Z")
Policing by consent 1.To prevent crime and disorder, as an alternative to their repression by military force and severity of legal punishment. 2.To recognise always that the power of the police to fulfil their functions and duties is dependent on public approval of their existence, actions and behaviour, and on their ability to secure and maintain public respect. 3.To recognise always that to secure and maintain the respect and approval of the public means also the securing of the willing co-operation of the public in the task of securing observance of laws. 4.To recognise always that the extent to which the co-operation of the public can be secured diminishes proportionately the necessity of the use of physical force and compulsion for achieving police objectives. 5.To seek and preserve public favour, not by pandering to public opinion, but by constantly demonstrating absolutely impartial service to law, in complete independence of policy, and without regard to the justice or injustice of the substance of individual laws, by ready offering of individual service and friendship to all members of the public without regard to their wealth or social standing, by ready exercise of courtesy and friendly good humour, and by ready offering of individual sacrifice in protecting and preserving life. 6.To use physical force only when the exercise of persuasion, advice and warning is found to be insufficient to obtain public co-operation to an extent necessary to secure observance of law or to restore order, and to use only the minimum degree of physical force which is necessary on any particular occasion for achieving a police objective. 7.To maintain at all times a relationship with the public that gives reality to the historic tradition that the police are the public and that the public are the police, the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full-time attention to duties which are incumbent on every citizen in the interests of community welfare and existence. 8.To recognise always the need for strict adherence to police-executive functions, and to refrain from even seeming to usurp the powers of the judiciary of avenging individuals or the State, and of authoritatively judging guilt and punishing the guilty. 9.To recognise always that the test of police efficiency is the absence of crime and disorder, and not the visible evidence of police action in dealing with them. > **[Peelian principles](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peelian_Principles)** > > The Peelian principles summarise the ideas that Sir Robert Peel developed to define an ethical police force. The approach expressed in these principles is commonly known as policing by consent in the United Kingdom and other countries such as Ireland, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand. > In this model of policing, police officers are regarded as citizens in uniform. They exercise their powers to police their fellow citizens with the implicit consent of those fellow citizens. "Policing by consent... ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-the-elephant-in-the-room/705655/183 "2014-11-26T23:16:00Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > In the UK all police are in the office of constable from raw recruits to the Chief Constable of the Metropolitan Police. All are officers - police officers. There is no separate officer class. > > Armed officers are usually constables and sergeants with management by Inspectors and Superintendents who are usually firearm trained though hands off. So, what you are saying is that you do, in fact, have ranks (from [here](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_ranks_of_the_United_Kingdom) it looks like Police Constable, sergeant, inspector-chief superintendent, Assistant Chief Constable up to Deputy Chief Constable, and finally Assistant Commissioner up to Commissioner), , but that they aren’t a separate ‘class’, whatever that means (to you). Which is exactly what I said. Officers of sergeant rank or higher are often issued arms if they can justify the need. BTW, all our police are also called ‘officers’ (you know, as in ‘police officers’) as well, in case you didn’t know that. We have similar ranks, though called different things (and, of course, we have a lot more police departments and it varies from state to state a lot more, and you have local police, tribal police, city/town police, state police and a few federal agencies tossed in as well). ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-the-elephant-in-the-room/705655/184 "2014-11-26T23:17:48Z")
No response to this, Pjen? > [@Bone](#): > > Are you disputing the fact that a person can still function after being shot multiple times? Or this: > [@Bone](#): > > I think you mean to add ‘finds shooting someone eight times is justified’ or something to that effect. Can you honestly not conceive of any situation where it would be justified to shoot an unarmed but otherwise dangerous person 8 times? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-the-elephant-in-the-room/705655/185 "2014-11-26T23:18:34Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > 1.To prevent crime and disorder, as an alternative to their repression by military force and severity of legal punishment. > 2.To recognise always that the power of the police to fulfil their functions and duties is dependent on public approval of their existence, actions and behaviour, and on their ability to secure and maintain public respect. > 3.To recognise always that to secure and maintain the respect and approval of the public means also the securing of the willing co-operation of the public in the task of securing observance of laws. > 4.To recognise always that the extent to which the co-operation of the public can be secured diminishes proportionately the necessity of the use of physical force and compulsion for achieving police objectives. > 5.To seek and preserve public favour, not by pandering to public opinion, but by constantly demonstrating absolutely impartial service to law, in complete independence of policy, and without regard to the justice or injustice of the substance of individual laws, by ready offering of individual service and friendship to all members of the public without regard to their wealth or social standing, by ready exercise of courtesy and friendly good humour, and by ready offering of individual sacrifice in protecting and preserving life. > 6.To use physical force only when the exercise of persuasion, advice and warning is found to be insufficient to obtain public co-operation to an extent necessary to secure observance of law or to restore order, and to use only the minimum degree of physical force which is necessary on any particular occasion for achieving a police objective. > 7.To maintain at all times a relationship with the public that gives reality to the historic tradition that the police are the public and that the public are the police, the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full-time attention to duties which are incumbent on every citizen in the interests of community welfare and existence. > 8.To recognise always the need for strict adherence to police-executive functions, and to refrain from even seeming to usurp the powers of the judiciary of avenging individuals or the State, and of authoritatively judging guilt and punishing the guilty. > 9.To recognise always that the test of police efficiency is the absence of crime and disorder, and not the visible evidence of police action in dealing with them. > [Peelian principles - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peelian_Principles) That’s nice. What happens when a cop who believes in all of that is pinned inside his vehicle and is being punched in the face by a stoned heavyweight? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-the-elephant-in-the-room/705655/186 "2014-11-26T23:18:36Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > Yes, I did. You are making, it seems to me, a distinction between sergeants and officers (and by inference some sort of lower rank that doesn’t get guns) that doesn’t really exist. It’s not a military structure. Firearms officers of all ranks in the UK are trained and screened constantly. They don’t hand out weapons to Billy-Bob “Fatarse” Racist just because he’s got a badge. Are you saying that a Police Constable is the same exact rank as a Sergeant and both are the same rank as, oh, say a Assistant Commissioner? :dubious: As for you guys not handing out weapons to racists, well, I guess that’s just one of the many ways you are better than us, right? ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-the-elephant-in-the-room/705655/187 "2014-11-26T23:20:51Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > What is the minimum amount of force required when you are being pinned inside a vehicle and punched in the face by a person who outweighs you? Is that what you think happened in Ferguson? What happened immediately before the confrontation? ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-the-elephant-in-the-room/705655/188 "2014-11-26T23:24:10Z")
> [@XT](#): > > So, what you are saying is that you do, in fact, have ranks (from [here](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_ranks_of_the_United_Kingdom) it looks like Police Constable, sergeant, inspector-chief superintendent, Assistant Chief Constable up to Deputy Chief Constable, and finally Assistant Commissioner up to Commissioner), , but that they aren’t a separate ‘class’, whatever that means (to you). Which is exactly what I said. Officers of sergeant rank or higher are often issued arms if they can justify the need. > > BTW, all our police are also called ‘officers’ (you know, as in ‘police officers’) as well, in case you didn’t know that. We have similar ranks, though called different things (and, of course, we have a lot more police departments and it varies from state to state a lot more, and you have local police, tribal police, city/town police, state police and a few federal agencies tossed in as well). NO. Trained firearm officers may be constables or sergeants. Some may be Inspectors or Superintendents as managers. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-the-elephant-in-the-room/705655/189 "2014-11-26T23:25:40Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > That’s nice. What happens when a cop who believes in all of that is pinned inside his vehicle and is being punched in the face by a stoned heavyweight? They use skill and experience to avoid such situations and ensure that they have appropriate resources to contain the situation. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-the-elephant-in-the-room/705655/190 "2014-11-26T23:25:40Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > NO. Trained firearm officers may be constables or sergeants. Some may be Inspectors or Superintendents as managers. No what? No, you don’t have ranks (which I already showed you do), or no, it’s not just sergeants and above that are generally armed? Or, no, it’s only trained firearms officers of whatever rank that are armed? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-the-elephant-in-the-room/705655/191 "2014-11-26T23:27:39Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Is that what you think happened in Ferguson? That is what I _know_ happened in Ferguson based on the preponderance of evidence that has been released. > [@](#): > > What happened immediately before the confrontation? The officer observed the young men jaywalking, yelled at them to get on the sidewalk, and simultaneously noted that one of them fit the description of a suspect in a strongarm robbery and subsequently moved his vehicle to block the road, whereupon the thief responded aggressively. Do you begin to understand how a routine encounter can quickly escalate into an act of violent aggression in ways that an officer cannot possibly predict or plan for? Or is it your continued assertion that law enforcement should always run away with their tail tucked between their legs and call for mommy to help them upon noticing a bad person who might not politely consent to be arrested like a decent criminal would? ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-the-elephant-in-the-room/705655/192 "2014-11-26T23:27:43Z")
> [@XT](#): > > No what? No, you don’t have ranks (which I already showed you do), or no, it’s not just sergeants and above that are generally armed? Or, no, it’s only trained firearms officers of whatever rank that are armed? There are ranks. Any rank may train to carry firearms. They always operate under superior command. Unless fired upon they may not fire without Bronze command agreement. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-the-elephant-in-the-room/705655/193 "2014-11-26T23:28:39Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > They use skill and experience to avoid such situations and ensure that they have appropriate resources to contain the situation. Describe the way in which one “uses skill and experience” while being pinned inside a vehicle and punched in the face by a stoned heavyweight. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-the-elephant-in-the-room/705655/194 "2014-11-26T23:31:49Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > There are ranks. > > Any rank may train to carry firearms. They always operate under superior command. Unless fired upon they may not fire without Bronze command agreement. Ok, gotcha. Yes, I agree. Sorry for the confusion, but I couldn’t tell what you were actually saying there. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-the-elephant-in-the-room/705655/195 "2014-11-26T23:32:21Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > That is what I _know_ happened in Ferguson based on the preponderance of evidence that has been released. > > The officer observed the young men jaywalking, yelled at them to get on the sidewalk, and simultaneously noted that one of them fit the description of a suspect in a strongarm robbery and subsequently moved his vehicle to block the road, whereupon the thief responded aggressively. > > Do you begin to understand how a routine encounter can quickly escalate into an act of violent aggression in ways that an officer cannot possibly predict or plan for? Or is it your continued assertion that law enforcement should always run away with their tail tucked between their legs and call for mommy to help them upon noticing a bad person who might not politely agree to be arrested? Even in the UK with its low preponderance of firearms in the civilian or criminal population, no police officer would intervene alone in such a situation if they suspected that violence might occur. Additionally your language gives away attitude. In the UK they would not ‘yell’ at people, they would try to make a relationship with the people without acting in a manner that might make someone strike back verbally or physically. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-the-elephant-in-the-room/705655/196 "2014-11-26T23:33:38Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Describe the way in which one “uses skill and experience” while being pinned inside a vehicle and punched in the face by a stoned heavyweight. Avoiding getting into the situation in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-the-elephant-in-the-room/705655/197 "2014-11-26T23:34:16Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Are you saying that a Police Constable is the same exact rank as a Sergeant and both are the same rank as, oh, say a Assistant Commissioner? :dubious: Eh? They are all officers. Of course there are ranks. WTF. You extruded: > [@](#): > > (mostly sergeants and officers, which is really unsurprising considering you are Brits ) If you can remember what your original point with that statement was, I’d like to hear it! ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-the-elephant-in-the-room/705655/198 "2014-11-26T23:36:08Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Even in the UK with its low preponderance of firearms in the civilian or criminal population, no police officer would intervene alone in such a situation if they suspected that violence might occur. > [@Pjen](#): > > Avoiding getting into the situation in the first place. So the best way to enforce the law is to not enforce the law at all and let criminals do whatever they want because someone might get hurt if you tell them “No, you can’t do that”. I guess the only way to win really _is_ not to play. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-the-elephant-in-the-room/705655/199 "2014-11-26T23:39:55Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Even in the UK with its low preponderance of firearms in the civilian or criminal population, no police officer would intervene alone in such a situation if they suspected that violence might occur. > > Additionally your language gives away attitude. In the UK they would not ‘yell’ at people, they would try to make a relationship with the people without acting in a manner that might make someone strike back verbally or physically. That’s rather painting a rosy picture, Pjen. ---
**Author:** ![LC\_Strawhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@LC\_Strawhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LC_Strawhouse)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-the-elephant-in-the-room/705655/200 "2014-11-26T23:40:16Z")
Where do you suppose [these British policemen](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgEo8lXtFIE) went wrong? Looks to me like a failure to build a relationship … I think I even saw some guns too. 😛 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-the-elephant-in-the-room/705655.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-the-elephant-in-the-room/705655.md?page=11)