# Ferguson- the elephant in the room **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 26, 2014, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-the-elephant-in-the-room/705655 "2014-11-26T07:01:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2014, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-the-elephant-in-the-room/705655/221 "2014-11-27T05:20:19Z")
> [@DinoR](#): > > Pjen, you seem to imply that the militarization of policing here is causal of an escalation of violence and use of firearms by criminals. I’d argue that it was initially a reaction to the situation as it already existed. It may have contributed some to continued escalation after that point. > > Equipping US law enforcement was a response to the “war on drugs.” Organized criminals we were expecting the police to deal with were already better armed and equipped. The escalation for organized crime wasn’t simply a matter of maintaining an advantage against the police. The also were competing with other organized criminal groups. Key groups in the drug trade are affiliated with competing cartels in Mexico. To be clear, though, this has little if anything to do with the fact that American LEOs have always been armed, at least since city police forces became widespread in the late 19th century. Or is that not the case? Officers didn’t start carrying guns as a result of the war on drugs. They’d always had them as far as I know. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2014, 8:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-the-elephant-in-the-room/705655/222 "2014-11-27T08:15:43Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > And you define “observing a person in the act of jaywalking” as a “dangerous situation” that requires “appropriate support”? We don’t have an equivalent of jaywalking. Crossing the road isn’t a crime as far as I know. ---
**Author:** ![DinoR](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dinor/32/2821_2.png) [@DinoR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DinoR)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2014, 9:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-the-elephant-in-the-room/705655/223 "2014-11-27T09:30:58Z")
> [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](#): > > To be clear, though, this has little if anything to do with the fact that American LEOs have always been armed, at least since city police forces became widespread in the late 19th century. Or is that not the case? Officers didn’t start carrying guns as a result of the war on drugs. They’d always had them as far as I know. Correct. But many of the European examples pointed to as examples of better police cultures still carry pistols including Northern Ireland. The German Polizei tend to be better armed than our current US patrol officers (MP5 submachineguns). There was a brief period where there was a similar escalation started by organized crime. It was when we banned alcohol during prohibition. We love our smuggled mind altering drugs in the US. Prohibition didn’t last long though. The period that’s coined the term militarization is a period where equipment and tactics have changed significantly from just carrying a pistol. Special response teams that look and train like elite military counter terror units have multiplied. Equipment above and beyond the pistol and maybe a shotgun in the car has increased. Individual tactics began to morph. That period started after the threat has significantly grown. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2014, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-the-elephant-in-the-room/705655/224 "2014-11-28T01:32:50Z")
> [@LC\_Strawhouse](#): > > There’s no way there have been only 83 police killings in Canada - the Wikipedia page says up top that the list is incomplete (12 incidents this year but nothing from 1975-1988 or 1932-1967? Come on.) Canada also has 10x fewer people than the U.S. > > I don’t deny that Canadian culture is very different than the U.S. in many ways and offers different challenges to police, but I would be _very_ skeptical that an average NYPD officer is somehow more Neanderthal than an average RCMP officer. I agree with you that the Canadian numbers are probably incomplete, but as I indicated so are the US police agency self-reported numbers. The thing is that, just like the number of gun fatalities, the difference in the number of police shootings between the US and Canada after adjusting for population difference is so huge that arguing about inaccuracies in one number or another is rather a moot point. I maintain that the high incidence of police shootings, as per some of the examples I gave, is largely due to the prevalence of guns in general. If someone is being aggressive and there’s a high statistical probability that the person might be armed, police are less likely to put themselves at risk with non-lethal weapons that might not be effective. I also agree with you that culture is a factor. I read a summary of Darren Wilson’s testimony and frankly it sounds credible to me, even if he might have embellished certain details in his favor. But part of the problem is what seems to be a state of ongoing conflict between the almost all-white police department and a population that is something like 67% black, and which black population accounts for 86% of traffic stops and almost 93% of the resulting arrests. So you have a police department that is predisposed to regard blacks as troublemakers and criminals, and a black population that is predisposed to regard the police as oppressive and bigoted. There seems to have been zero effort made to reflect the community demographics in the makeup of the police department, or to integrate the police into the community as other cities are doing with things like community-friendly bicycle and foot patrols and proactive anti-discrimination policies; on the contrary, the Ferguson police department participates in a DoD program that gives them surplus military equipment like automatic weapons and armored vehicles. Now add to that hotbed of racial tension and mutual distrust a gun culture that allows anybody and everybody easy access to weapons, and the result should be no surprise. One of the interesting points in Wilson’s testimony concerned why he wasn’t carrying a Taser. He claimed it was just too big and bulky to carry around on his belt, but one suspects that what he was really thinking was that if he was ever in the position of needing a weapon he wanted a serious one and wasn’t about to risk getting himself shot. ---
**Author:** ![A\_nice\_guy\_with\_an\_opinion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/76d3ee/32.png) [@A\_nice\_guy\_with\_an\_opinion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_nice_guy_with_an_opinion)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2014, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-the-elephant-in-the-room/705655/225 "2014-11-28T04:14:02Z")
I would love to see all of the places that want their police disarmed do it. I would love to see the results even more. Good luck, blue cities. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2014, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-the-elephant-in-the-room/705655/226 "2014-11-28T17:24:11Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Please, then, explain to us what a European police officer, with the same equipment at his disposal that Darren Wilson had, would have done differently that would not have resulted in Michael Brown being shot. Do not tell us he would have “been prepared” or “made decisions”. Give us a specific description of what would have happened differently. I love how you depict the event in the passive tense “…resulted in Michael Brown being shot” as if it was an inevitable act of nature. How different from describing it accurately as “the cop pulled the trigger – about a dozen times – and shot Michael Brown until he was dead”! What would a European or Canadian cop have done differently? Judging from the overwhelming statistics on police behaviors, he would not have shot him. Is that specific enough? > [@Smapti](#): > > A man who outweighs you is reaching through the window of your vehicle and punching you in the face. How do you deploy a baton, Taser, or pepper spray in those close quarters? Kind of irrelevant since that’s not when Brown was killed. He was killed out in the open, shot multiple times at a variety of distances. > [@A\_nice\_guy\_with\_an\_opinion](#): > > I would love to see all of the places that want their police disarmed do it. > > I would love to see the results even more. I would love to see where anyone in this thread has suggested that American police be unilaterally disarmed. There are so many strawmen in this thread that I could build a straw house out of them. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2014, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-the-elephant-in-the-room/705655/227 "2014-11-28T22:19:45Z")
[QUOTE=Pjen] It is really worth comparing Police reality shows from the US and UK. [/quote] Apart from the silliness of assuming that reality TV is a good gauge of everyday policing, you should have noticed that it is extremely rare on such programs for American police to shoot or otherwise inflict serious bodily harm on suspects, even when they resist arrest and beat on officers. > [@Pjen](#): > > Many Brits are appalled at the manner and assumptions of US police. A number of Brits (at least, those who spend an inordinate amount of time posting about Evil USers on message boards) seem to be appalled about nearly everything. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2014, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-the-elephant-in-the-room/705655/228 "2014-11-29T03:52:12Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > They think tactically, plan, make decisions, call for back up, don’t get shot in the process and rarely kill anyone in the process. It’s called skilled policing. Well, no wonder my countrymen can’t do that. These days, American exceptionalism is all about our perception of our own incompetence. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2014, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-the-elephant-in-the-room/705655/229 "2014-11-29T05:58:01Z")
I was shocked that the police killed Kajieme Powell, the Ferguson knife wielder, and shocked that Dopers thought the police decision to kill was correct. Is policeman’s time so valuable that spending ten minutes to talk to a crazy man is unaffordable, when he can be killed in one minute? Driving straight up to the kid with a toy and killing him was also unbelievable. And to pretend that these killings are unrelated to the race of the victim is absurd. OP wants a good way forward? Start by ensuring that police are friends of the community they serve, not opposite-colored haters as is clearly the case in Ferguson. > [@](#): > > But is it? There’s, like 300 million in the U.S. Comparing it to a 60 million country is hardly a fair statistic… American exceptionalism is so amusing! A country with 80 million is too small to compare with the U.S. Lesser countries are familiar with “per capita” statistics but we’ve got nuclear weapons, so we don’t need long division! :rolleyes: During the 2000 Florida recount, a Brit who noted that ballots are recounted by hand in his country was admonished: “You’re from a little country. Do you have any idea how big Florida is?” > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > That’s not the elephant in the room either. Brown was unarmed but twice Wilson’s size. If Wilson hadn’t been armed Brown would have beaten him to a pulp (assuming he did in fact attack him.) 😕 😕_ **Beating a police officer is a very serious offense** _. Do really you think that in a rational gun-free culture, citizens beating policemen would be a common occurrence? We don’t have video of the Brown-Wilson incident, but if Brown attacked Wilson at all, it might have been due to annoyance at a racist coward hiding behind a gun. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2014, 9:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-the-elephant-in-the-room/705655/230 "2014-11-29T09:55:06Z")
The fact that the American policeis way too trigger happy is made obvious by advices posted on this board. For instance, if stopped by the police on the road, you should keep your hands on the wheel, anounce your intentions before moving, don’t suddenly reach for the glove compartment or your pocket, etc… Basically, it means that being stopped by the police is considered dangerous and potentially lethal for a law-abiding citizen, even during a routine interaction. Which means that something is deeply wrong. And sure, there are less weapons around in Europe. But still, the police does face sometimes armed and hardened criminals. And apparently even in these cases, the result typically is that nobody is killed. Even though I wouldn’t know what the police would do in a specific situation similar to that of Wilson, the statistics indicate that dangerous situations or not, people don’t get killed. Which points at an issue of procedures regarding the use of weapons by the American police. This specific case might or might not have turned out differently in an European country. But the fact is that such an outcome is an anomaly in Europe and a common occurence in the USA. And I’m sure that it sometimes happen in Germany, or Japan or wherever that someone reaches for a police officer’s weapon. The issue seems to be that police is trained to answer to lethal force to any threat. Someone seems to be reaching for something : it might be a weapon, so he might kill you, so you should open fire immediately, and preferably 8 times to make very very sure he’s dead because someone shot only 7 times might possibly still not be incapacitated. People seem to share this approach and _expect_ the police to react with extreme violence to the slighest threat. See the people defending the immediate shooting of a 12 yo because he “reached” for a weapon, and blaming the kid, which seems completely insane to me, especially after watching the video. Besides, someone asked what the police officer should do if he’s alone and assaulted. I had never payed attention to that but in fact I never see a police officer alone over here, even when it’s the rural “gendarmerie” handing speeding tickets in the middle of nowhere. So maybe the fact the police officer was alone is already part of the problem. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2014, 10:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-the-elephant-in-the-room/705655/231 "2014-11-29T10:35:03Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Are you disputing the fact that a person can still function after being shot multiple times? > > If a person is justified in shooting and have made the decision to shoot, I would hope and expect them to shoot until there is no longer a threat. That can be 1 shot, or it could be 14. [Here’s a guy who didn’t go down](http://www.policeone.com/patrol-issues/articles/6199620-Why-one-cop-carries-145-rounds-of-ammo-on-the-job/) after being hit 14 times with .45 caliber rounds. > I think you mean to add ‘finds shooting someone eight times is justified’ or something to that effect. Can you honestly not conceive of any situation where it would be justified to shoot an unarmed but otherwise dangerous person 8 times? So you demand the right to shoot because shooting is often ineffective? What you seem to be going for here is the idea that you have the right to shoot until the target is visibly no longer able to move, or has a visible vital organ rupture, or you run out of ammunition. You’re proving the point that firearms are an utterly lousy tool to restrain a suspect. There are basically two ways to “stop a perp” with a firearm:[ol] [li]Fire as many shots at center mass as you can in the hope that one will tear open the heart or aorta, and the target will faint from blood loss (and most likely also die).[/li][li]Pull off a head shot. If you’re a good shot, this is both more efficient and more humane. The shot has a decent chance to stun, blind, or kill the target.[/li][/ol] Wilson apparently went for the “empty your clip at center mass” option, as trained to do. In the process, he kept firing as Mike Brown fell (implying a successful aorta hit) and opened Brown’s brainpan. What Wilson was doing before, with the firing wildy at two suspects running away, I don’t really know. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2014, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-the-elephant-in-the-room/705655/232 "2014-11-29T10:44:05Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > So let me just confirm this; it is your opinion that a police officer, a person sworn to uphold the law and serve the cause of justice, upon observing a crime in progress, should run away and allow the crime to go unimpeded? Fallacy of the excluded middle, and not for the first time in this thread. A gun is a hole-punch powered by a firecracker, not a magic device to make people do what you want. And a policeman’s job, whatever you seem to believe, is not actually to blow holes in people who are committing crimes. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2014, 10:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-the-elephant-in-the-room/705655/233 "2014-11-29T10:48:04Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > What Wilson was doing before, with the firing wildy at two suspects running away, I don’t really know. You are spouting counterfactual bullshit again, **Foolsguinea**. The narrative you are clinging to cannot be true, because there aren’t enough bullets in play for it to be true. We _know_ how many bullets were fired, we _know_ when they were fired, and we _know_ how many hit Brown from the front. No matter how many times people like you repeat this idiotic claim, it will never be true. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2014, 10:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-the-elephant-in-the-room/705655/234 "2014-11-29T10:56:32Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > What is the minimum amount of force required when you are being pinned inside a vehicle and punched in the face by a person who outweighs you? What account of events are you going on? The lethal shot was not inside the car. Also, in Missouri, where I live and where Darren Wilson served, I think the _appropriate_ amount of force in that case would look something like this: Use the pepper spray all patrolmen are issued (I have been pepper sprayed at close range, so it’s technically possible). If that seems unwieldy due to blowback, then use your hand-to-hand skills and/or your baton. If you have a taser (Darren Wilson didn’t carry one) you could reasonably use that. If it is somehow the case that it’s easier to take the time and spare a hand to open your holster for your gun than to simply grapple or use pepper spray, then that might be reasonable. But you will have unlocked your gun and made it more likely that it can be turned against you as you try to fire, so that’s only sometimes optimal. And if an officer were being overpowered and killed someone to escape a dangerous grappling situation, I think most Americans would find that reasonable. And yet _none_ of this appears to be what Darren Wilson did. The lethal shots were fired at range, at an allegedly surrendering suspect. As for what Brits do, I suspect they use their batons, that’s what they are there for. Really, your fixation on firearms as the standard tool of police officers seems either ignorant or strangely maniacal. The gun is a tool, but hardly the primary one, even for a corrupt and brutal cop. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2014, 11:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-the-elephant-in-the-room/705655/235 "2014-11-29T11:00:12Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > You are spouting counterfactual bullshit again, **Foolsguinea**. The narrative you are clinging to cannot be true, because there aren’t enough bullets in play for it to be true. We _know_ how many bullets were fired, we _know_ when they were fired, and we _know_ how many hit Brown from the front. No matter how many times people like you repeat this idiotic claim, it will never be true. Are you arguing from evidence or from authority? It has been asserted by residents of the neighborhood that police did remove at least one bullet from a wall of a building there. Maybe “wildly” is an overstatement. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2014, 11:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-the-elephant-in-the-room/705655/236 "2014-11-29T11:05:52Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > So the best way to enforce the law is to not enforce the law at all and let criminals do whatever they want because someone might get hurt if you tell them “No, you can’t do that”. > > I guess the only way to win really _is_ not to play. Your love of the excluded middle is adolescent. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2014, 11:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-the-elephant-in-the-room/705655/237 "2014-11-29T11:20:28Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > Besides, someone asked what the police officer should do if he’s alone and assaulted. I had never payed attention to that but in fact I never see a police officer alone over here, even when it’s the rural “gendarmerie” handing speeding tickets in the middle of nowhere. So maybe the fact the police officer was alone is already part of the problem. Yeah, I think it is. On my side of the state, officers may drive solo, but they will call for backup for a traffic stop. Wilson accelerated the confrontation very quickly. If he’d followed procedure, he could have had a buddy show up… to help him kill the scary black man. Oh, wait, apparently in some precincts, the cops are too stupid to do anything but spit bullets in a hail, even in a group. I forgot. Seriously, having a partner is not a bad idea. ---
**Author:** ![Gerald\_II](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Gerald\_II](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gerald_II)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2014, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-the-elephant-in-the-room/705655/238 "2014-11-29T11:45:45Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > We seem to cope in Europe. Maybe our criminals are just less dangerous. Maybe. Over here we have a severe problem with gangs. In California Nuestra Familia and the Mexican Mafia control all the Mexican street gangs, and those two groups are at war with each other, in prison and on the streets. Then there’s black gangs like Bloods and Crips, each comprised of smaller gangs, who are at war with each other. Then there’s racial wars between Mexican gangs in L.A. and black gangs. The Mexican Mafia has ordered the street gangs to “clean” their neighborhoods of any blacks, regardless of whether or not they are gang affiliated. In Chicago there’s all kinds of gangs: Latin Kings, Gangster Disciples, Spanish Cobras, Maniacs, Counts, etc. Many of these gangs have spread far beyond their original territories. Now there’s Nortenos and Surenos in Washington, Texas and Florida. Bloods and Crips are in New York. > [@BobLibDem](#): > > The OP raises some valid points. I think the first step in solving the problem is admitting that we have one. Our police are far too trigger happy. They bask in the same glow of uniform worship that soldiers enjoy and a significant segment of the public will cheer every shooting. The legal system has essentially told black youth that their lives don’t matter, so any cop with racist tendencies doesn’t hesitate to pull that trigger, and pull it again and again. We’ve made it so that the cop is encouraged to shoot to kill the minute that he fears getting a bruise. This won’t change until all Americans live in fear of being murdered by the police, not just one ethnic group. We also live in a society where life is considered cheap. We have kids killing kids over a color. > [@Pjen](#): > > Criminals do not generally need nor use guns here BECAUSE the police are not routinely armed and because gun usage or possession results in long sentences. We have harsh sentencing as well, at least in California, like the 3 strikes law and gang enhancements but we still have a substantial gang problem. If that doesn’t completely dissuade gang members, I don’t think disarming police would get them to put away the guns. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2014, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-the-elephant-in-the-room/705655/239 "2014-11-29T11:56:46Z")
I don’t see the cause / effect OP posits, the United Kingdom is a bit of an outlier in that it doesn’t arm its police. Lots of other police forces are generally armed but have a much lower rate of line of duty shootings than the United States. The primary reason for so many officer line of duty shootings is because we have more armed criminals. That’s really as simple as it gets. Rest is just background noise. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2014, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-the-elephant-in-the-room/705655/240 "2014-11-29T12:03:03Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > What account of events are you going on? The lethal shot was not inside the car. > > Also, in Missouri, where I live and where Darren Wilson served, I think the _appropriate_ amount of force in that case would look something like this: Use the pepper spray all patrolmen are issued (I have been pepper sprayed at close range, so it’s technically possible). If that seems unwieldy due to blowback, then use your hand-to-hand skills and/or your baton. If you have a taser (Darren Wilson didn’t carry one) you could reasonably use that. If it is somehow the case that it’s easier to take the time and spare a hand to open your holster for your gun than to simply grapple or use pepper spray, then that might be reasonable. But you will have unlocked your gun and made it more likely that it can be turned against you as you try to fire, so that’s only sometimes optimal. > > And if an officer were being overpowered and killed someone to escape a dangerous grappling situation, I think most Americans would find that reasonable. > > And yet _none_ of this appears to be what Darren Wilson did. The lethal shots were fired at range, at an allegedly surrendering suspect. > > As for what Brits do, I suspect they use their batons, that’s what they are there for. Really, your fixation on firearms as the standard tool of police officers seems either ignorant or strangely maniacal. The gun is a tool, but hardly the primary one, even for a corrupt and brutal cop. “Allegedly” surrendering is a meaningless term. The preponderance of released evidence and the grand jury ruling suggests that those who have alleged such were not actual witnesses to the event. Even the witnesses most condemnatory of Wilson didn’t suggest Brown was surrendering. They suggested Brown seemed shocked that he had been shot and was turning toward Wilson, but not charging him. Those are the witnesses **most** condemnatory of Wilson. To me this goes back to the Zimmerman case, people that don’t know anything about violence assume that being beaten up is a small thing and should never warrant a lethal response. The reality is lots of people suffer life-changing or life-ending injuries from a beating. When you’re a police officer you don’t get to lose a fight, because that likely means the person beating you up can get your gun. Batons are great when they can be used, but in a situation where you’re already losing a fist fight you’re probably not in a good position to use one. Batons cannot be used to strike the head of a suspect, but instead are to be used for pain compliance. For this reason they are really only tactically useful when more than one police officer is trying to subdue a violently resisting suspect. A private citizen isn’t required to use pepper spray in lieu of a gun if they can demonstrate they were in fear of bodily harm or death, and neither are police. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-the-elephant-in-the-room/705655.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-the-elephant-in-the-room/705655.md?page=13)