# Ferguson- the elephant in the room **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 26, 2014, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-the-elephant-in-the-room/705655 "2014-11-26T07:01:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-the-elephant-in-the-room/705655/121 "2014-11-26T16:26:54Z")
> [@XT](#): > > I know, I lived in Canada for several years. šŸ™‚ I still donā€™t think it would be a good comparison as Canada is just a different place than the US in so many ways. That said, Iā€™d be interested in seeing the stats if anyone can dig them up. Oh, I agree that it is different - but (once again, assuming the subjective impression is correct - I canā€™t easily find info on this) I think that those differences may be illuminating for this issue, in light of the similarities that also exist. To my mind, the two most significant differences are: 1. The legacy of slavery and racism, leading to a mostly urban population that is disaffected from the majority culture and vice versa. Canadaā€™s analogy to this is not racism vs. Blacks (not to say such racism is absent!), but rather, Canadaā€™s fraught relationship with its aboriginal population - but much of that population is rural. 2. The ready access to guns, and in particular, to handguns. The notion that Canada is ā€œgun freeā€ is of course incorrect - long guns are commonly owned (my dad has several) but that is, again, mostly a rural thing. Also, smuggling from the US puts guns in the hands of Canadian criminals, and the police go armed. What is different, is the level of casual handgun ownership. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-the-elephant-in-the-room/705655/122 "2014-11-26T16:27:02Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > _Versus_. Gah. :smack: Sorry ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-the-elephant-in-the-room/705655/123 "2014-11-26T16:30:04Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > If you read Dickens ā€™ account of nineteenth century USA, the smug, moralistic lecturing dates back over 150 years. He was ahead of his time in many ways. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-the-elephant-in-the-room/705655/124 "2014-11-26T16:31:40Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Oh, I agree that it is different - but (once again, assuming the subjective impression is correct - I canā€™t easily find info on this) I think that those differences may be illuminating for this issue, in light of the similarities that also exist. > > To my mind, the two most significant differences are: > > 1. The legacy of slavery and racism, leading to a mostly urban population that is disaffected from the majority culture and vice versa. Canadaā€™s analogy to this is not racism vs. Blacks (not to say such racism is absent!), but rather, Canadaā€™s fraught relationship with its aboriginal population - but much of that population is rural. > > 2. The ready access to guns, and in particular, to handguns. The notion that Canada is ā€œgun freeā€ is of course incorrect - long guns are commonly owned (my dad has several) but that is, again, mostly a rural thing. Also, smuggling from the US puts guns in the hands of Canadian criminals, and the police go armed. What is different, is the level of casual handgun ownership. I agree. Another difference is the prevalence of illegal drugs in the US and basically economic class segregation which is a lot more prevalent in the US than Canada, at least in the parts of Canada I lived and worked in. But I think the legacy of racial issues is the biggest problem lingering in the USā€¦thatā€™s the REAL ā€˜elephant in the roomā€™, though as a poster up thread said itā€™s not really an elephant in the room since we do talk about it and acknowledge it quite often. Regardless, the OPs assertion that itā€™s a ā€˜police cultureā€™ thatā€™s the root cause is way off the markā€¦basically, itā€™s like saying that itā€™s the symptom thatā€™s the issue, not the disease. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-the-elephant-in-the-room/705655/125 "2014-11-26T16:35:26Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Correct. What do gun-less cops do when they encounter assailants with guns? Call for backup and dodge bullets for 5 minutes? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-the-elephant-in-the-room/705655/126 "2014-11-26T16:39:43Z")
> [@Shakes](#): > > Pointing out the problem is easy. When you have a viable solution get back to me. And leave your sanctimonious bull shit behind. Ya know, any solution is viable. Any solution at all. It just takes lots of work to implement some of them, but your nitpick request for a ā€œviableā€ solution is bullshit. It comes across as a cop out taken in order to not have to do anything to change the police and gun culture in this country; i.e. ā€œoh thatā€™ll never happen; next ā€˜viableā€™ solution please!ā€ Slavery was pretty entrenched in this country, but somehow we found a ā€œviableā€ solution to that and the means and will to implement it. Child labor, workplace safety, women and minorities voting, etc. are other examples of things that eventually became normal and accepted, when at one time there was seemingly no ā€œviableā€ solution to the problem. There are viable solution to Americaā€™s gun violence problems; the fact that they arenā€™t palatable to everyone does not make them unfeasible. And peopleā€™s perceptions can change; thatā€™s the legwork that would need to be done before the US would be willing to change. But the necessity of that work doesnā€™t make a proposed solution nonviable, just more difficult to implement. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-the-elephant-in-the-room/705655/127 "2014-11-26T16:45:59Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Slavery was pretty entrenched in this country, but somehow we found a ā€œviableā€ solution to that and the means and will to implement it. Child labor, workplace safety, women and minorities voting, etc. are other examples of things that eventually became normal and accepted, when at one time there was seemingly no ā€œviableā€ solution to the problem. Ending slavery, establishing fair labor laws, and extending universal enfranchisement all involved significant bloodshed in the process of change, especially ending slavery. How much blood, and whose blood, are you willing to shed in the process of this change? Any solution and allā€¦ ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-the-elephant-in-the-room/705655/128 "2014-11-26T17:24:25Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > It isnā€™t easy, probably the best starting point would be the removal of the vast majority of guns from the people. > Bring in strict rules governing gun ownership and sweep millions of handguns off the streets. Make it difficult to sell, own and operate a gun, make the need for a criminal to own a gun less pressing (why use a gun when you can accomplish your crime through a knife or blunt instrument?). Oh, so thatā€™s all we have to do? I suppose weā€™d best get on that, then. Removing the vast majority of the guns from the people should go over smoothly and I foresee absolutely no complications or opposition to that plan. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-the-elephant-in-the-room/705655/129 "2014-11-26T17:26:56Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Firearms have been rare in British criminality. They are now mainly restricted to small gangs in urban centers. Ordinary decent criminals rarely use them. Well, thereā€™s our problem - our criminals just arenā€™t _decent_ enough. I propose we start by sending every known criminal a copy of Emily Postā€™s guide and offering them tuition-free seminars on the polite and genteel way to rob convenience stores and assault policemen. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-the-elephant-in-the-room/705655/130 "2014-11-26T17:39:28Z")
Michael Brown seems to be one of those ordinary, decent criminals, since he used no weapon when he robbed the convenience store and assaulted the clerk. It was only when he assaulted Officer Wilson and tried to grab his gun that he got his ass shot. Poor innocent lamb that he was, corrupted and laid waste by the Evil Gun Culture. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-the-elephant-in-the-room/705655/131 "2014-11-26T18:15:31Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Thatā€™s not the elephant in the room either. Brown was unarmed but twice Wilsonā€™s size. If Wilson hadnā€™t been armed Brown would have beaten him to a pulp (assuming he did in fact attack him.) Both were 6ft 4in. One weighed a fit 210ib, one was a n obese 300lb. You have been misled by selective facts. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-the-elephant-in-the-room/705655/132 "2014-11-26T18:19:14Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > What do gun-less cops do when they encounter assailants with guns? Call for backup and dodge bullets for 5 minutes? They think tactically, plan, make decisions, call for back up, donā€™t get shot in the process and rarely kill anyone in the process. Itā€™s called skilled policing. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-the-elephant-in-the-room/705655/133 "2014-11-26T18:23:25Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > ETA: US police officers are ā€œaccountableā€ for their use of firearms. Every officer-involved shooting is investigated by supervisors and other agencies (here in Florida, the state Department of Law Enforcement investigates each one whether it involves a state or local police agency). Officers are probably not frequently held accountable for wrongful killings by the criminal justice system, but thatā€™s a function of our politics, not our attitude to guns. Any ā€˜investigationā€™ that finds shooting someone eight times when they are not armed is not being held to account. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-the-elephant-in-the-room/705655/134 "2014-11-26T18:25:31Z")
> [@LC\_Strawhouse](#): > > Fine, so letā€™s say the violent crime rates are dead even between the US and UK. So as stated earlier ā€¦ you wonā€™t get shot in the U.K., youā€™ll ā€œonlyā€ get beaten or stabbed at the same rate. Not borne out by statistics. Minimally few beatings or stabbings. They use skilled policing because they canā€™t use the easy gun option. They do have pepper spray, takers and night sticks. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-the-elephant-in-the-room/705655/135 "2014-11-26T18:28:01Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > My dad was a cop. My uncle was a state trooper. I was a deputy sheriff. In all of those agencies, discharging a firearm would have required filing a detailed report of the incident. An actual shooting would have involved an investigation. Happily, none of us ever actually had to use a gun in the line of duty. The overwhelming number of LEos donā€™t, even in the US. You are fixated on guns. I consider the real problems with LE to be corruption, a pervasive bullying attitude, and widespread general assholery. To that, I will add that there are cops who arenā€™t like that, but they actively or passively cover for the ones who are. I am fixated on hundreds of death by cop a year on the USA and hardly any elsewhere. The standards of accountability are miles apart. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-the-elephant-in-the-room/705655/136 "2014-11-26T18:30:19Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > They think tactically, plan, make decisions, call for back up,\*\* donā€™t get shot in the process\*\* and rarely kill anyone in the process. Itā€™s called skilled policing. This is great advice, a really useful post. When confronted by a person with a gun, donā€™t get shot. This should be forwarded, not just to police departments, but to all Americans. If only the students at Columbine or VA Tech had the benefit of this wisdom. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-the-elephant-in-the-room/705655/137 "2014-11-26T18:31:23Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > And your solution is to simply start limiting police weapons. > > It actually is a cultural issue and if you come up with a realistic way to change the culture, I am sure that many people would be eager to hear it. I am not advocating removal of guns. Merely accountability for their use and adoption of less trigger happy minders. Many European police forces manage to be fully armed while refraining from killing hundreds a year. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-the-elephant-in-the-room/705655/138 "2014-11-26T18:33:29Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > **Pjen** , I donā€™t know why you think Americans are ready for a sensible discussion of their gun culture. Havenā€™t the forty-bajillion gun threads on this board shown you that the subject is not up for rational consideration? > > Like healthcare, there is too much national pride invested in the status quo to seriously consider someone elseā€™s model. If society is armed, the police must be armed; if the police are armed, they must be able to shoot; if able to shoot, there must be casualties; if casualties, they must be an acceptable price for the social order, which includes an armed society. > > Personally, I think the second amendment was a dumb idea from the get-go and should be scrapped yesterday. I do not believe Americans are capable of amending the Constitution any longer, and certainly not the Sacred Ten in the Bill of Rights. I do realise that, but death by cop is such a slam dunk that it is interesting to see the desperation of the arguments in trying to oppose it. ---
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-the-elephant-in-the-room/705655/139 "2014-11-26T18:47:53Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > I do realise that, but death by cop is such a slam dunk that it is interesting to see the desperation of the arguments in trying to oppose it. Death by cop of someone who assaulted the officer, may have been armed at the time but the officer wasnā€™t sure he was unarmed, and who was charging an officer who had his weapon drawn and had warned him to FREEZE! Itā€™s tragic, yes, a young man lost his life, but letā€™s be mindful of the relevant facts. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-the-elephant-in-the-room/705655/140 "2014-11-26T18:49:11Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > I am not advocating removal of guns. Merely accountability for their use and adoption of less trigger happy minders. Many European police forces manage to be fully armed while refraining from killing hundreds a year. Please, then, explain to us what a European police officer, with the same equipment at his disposal that Darren Wilson had, would have done differently that would not have resulted in Michael Brown being shot. Do not tell us he would have ā€œbeen preparedā€ or ā€œmade decisionsā€. Give us a specific description of what would have happened differently. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-the-elephant-in-the-room/705655.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-the-elephant-in-the-room/705655.md?page=8)