# Ferguson- the elephant in the room **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 26, 2014, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-the-elephant-in-the-room/705655 "2014-11-26T07:01:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-the-elephant-in-the-room/705655/141 "2014-11-26T18:49:24Z")
Pjen, I’m sorry, but your whole spiel is reminiscent of conversations I encountered forty years ago with people from the right side of the Atlantic. At that time, the common theme was how Americans should just learn from their European betters how to avoid the racism, intolerance, and discrimination against minorities. Clearly, Europe had a better handle on such things with their utter lack of ethnic conflict. (Any discussion of the Romany people was carefully avoided, of course.) Since then, of course, I have watched Europe pleasantly accept and accommodate everyone with no rise of skinheads, no nationalist “resistance” movements, no new legislation needed to combat hate crimes, etc. You have simplistic answers to complex issues of which you give lip service to understanding without actually demonstrating that you do understand the complexity of the situations. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-the-elephant-in-the-room/705655/142 "2014-11-26T18:51:41Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > I am not advocating removal of guns. Merely accountability for their use and adoption of less trigger happy minders. Many European police forces manage to be fully armed while refraining from killing hundreds a year. While not facing an armed criminal class. Big deal. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-the-elephant-in-the-room/705655/143 "2014-11-26T19:00:07Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Please, then, explain to us what a European police officer, with the same equipment at his disposal that Darren Wilson had, would have done differently that would not have resulted in Michael Brown being shot. Do not tell us he would have “been prepared” or “made decisions”. Give us a specific description of what would have happened differently. In exactly those circumstances, he/she and their partner would have assessed the situation and after violence was offered would have used night stick, taser or pepper spray. Result one less episode of death by cop. If he had not drawn his gun, he would not have been at risk. ---
**Author:** ![LC\_Strawhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@LC\_Strawhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LC_Strawhouse)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-the-elephant-in-the-room/705655/144 "2014-11-26T19:06:36Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Not borne out by statistics. Minimally few beatings or stabbings. 😕 Your own statistics posted up-thread showed that the UK has the same level of violent crime as the US, without guns. I suppose they could all be using water balloons, but English & Scottish knife/bottle violence is freakin’ legendary. [Random article](http://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/1000-knife-crime-victims-in-london-each-month-shocking-new-figures-show-8681511.html) Anyway, I think I’ll bow out before your next wave of cherry picked “statistics” off a Facebook chain letter. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-the-elephant-in-the-room/705655/145 "2014-11-26T19:06:43Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > In exactly those circumstances, he/she and their partner What partner? Wilson was working alone and had no partner in his arsenal. > [@](#): > > would have assessed the situation and after violence was offered would have used night stick, taser or pepper spray. A man who outweighs you is reaching through the window of your vehicle and punching you in the face. How do you deploy a baton, Taser, or pepper spray in those close quarters? ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-the-elephant-in-the-room/705655/146 "2014-11-26T19:18:45Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > What partner? Wilson was working alone and had no partner in his arsenal. > > A man who outweighs you is reaching through the window of your vehicle and punching you in the face. How do you deploy a baton, Taser, or pepper spray in those close quarters? If entering a situation which is unsafe, being unaccompanied as a police officer is taking a great risk, armed or not. If you are hit through a window while alone, you can withdraw and call for back up. It was the fact that he had a gun and thought that he was in control that was at the root of he problem. ---
**Author:** ![MikeF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@MikeF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MikeF)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-the-elephant-in-the-room/705655/147 "2014-11-26T19:21:12Z")
Pjen - if you feel that a cop shooting someone eight times is inherently wrong and can never be justified you have a poor understanding of deadly force encounters. For instance, did you know that someone who has been fatally shot through the heart can continue to be aggressive for up to thirty seconds? In ten seconds an officer could easily empty a 17 round magazine. One of the first dash cam training videos I saw showed a Trooper being shot to death by a man he had already shot five time with a .357 magnum. The killer survived. You said: First, change the police culture. Second, change the law abiding citizen culture Third, change the criminal culture. Did you mean in that order? If so, I think your priorities are reversed. Police respond to increasing crime. Criminals didn’t get more, bigger and better guns because the cops did. It was the other way around. Please show me an example of where changing police culture led to a decrease in crime. ---
**Author:** ![Atomic\_Alex](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atomic_alex/32/175_2.png) [@Atomic\_Alex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atomic_Alex)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-the-elephant-in-the-room/705655/148 "2014-11-26T19:22:57Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Consequently British police never do this, opening fire only on orders from a senior officer. This caught my attention, a senior officer can’t order a lower rank to open fire, that is entirely the decision of the officer pulling the trigger. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-the-elephant-in-the-room/705655/149 "2014-11-26T19:24:40Z")
> [@LC\_Strawhouse](#): > > 😕 Your own statistics posted up-thread showed that the UK has the same level of violent crime as the US, without guns. I suppose they could all be using water balloons, but English & Scottish knife/bottle violence is freakin’ legendary. [Random article](http://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/1000-knife-crime-victims-in-london-each-month-shocking-new-figures-show-8681511.html) > > Anyway, I think I’ll bow out before your next wave of cherry picked “statistics” off a Facebook chain letter. You might educate yourself about the misuse of crime statistics here which shows that the USA under records violence that is not 'aggravated" whereas the UK includes and knife usage as a violent crime.[http://dispellingthemythukvsusguns.wordpress.com/](http://dispellingthemythukvsusguns.wordpress.com/) ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-the-elephant-in-the-room/705655/150 "2014-11-26T19:25:50Z")
> [@Disposable Hero](#): > > This caught my attention, a senior officer can’t order a lower rank to open fire, that is entirely the decision of the officer pulling the trigger. Who cannot open fire until authorised by a senior officer. The it is his/her decision. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-the-elephant-in-the-room/705655/151 "2014-11-26T19:26:28Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > If entering a situation which is unsafe, being unaccompanied as a police officer is taking a great risk, armed or not. The situation he entered was “driving back from a medical emergency when he observed two young men jaywalking”. Are you trying to tell me that jaywalking is too great a risk for an armed officer to deal with without waiting for help? > [@](#): > > If you are hit through a window while alone, you can withdraw and call for back up. Firstly, he had already called for backup at this point. Are you sure you understand the timeline of the encounter? Secondly, do you suppose there’s some possibility that trying to hit the gas and take off while being punched through the window could have hurt or killed Brown or caused an accident that would have hurt other bystanders or damaged property? ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-the-elephant-in-the-room/705655/152 "2014-11-26T19:28:19Z")
> [@MikeF](#): > > Pjen - if you feel that a cop shooting someone eight times is inherently wrong and can never be justified you have a poor understanding of deadly force encounters. For instance, did you know that someone who has been fatally shot through the heart can continue to be aggressive for up to thirty seconds? In ten seconds an officer could easily empty a 17 round magazine. > > . No incidents like that seem to occur in the UK or elsewhere. At least I have not read of them and they are not in the records. ---
**Author:** ![Atomic\_Alex](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atomic_alex/32/175_2.png) [@Atomic\_Alex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atomic_Alex)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-the-elephant-in-the-room/705655/153 "2014-11-26T19:30:55Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Who cannot open fire until authorised by a senior officer. The it is his/her decision. The senior officer might request armed officers but if the situation requires it said officers can open fire authorised or not. The senior officer can’t issue a shoot/don’t shoot order. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-the-elephant-in-the-room/705655/154 "2014-11-26T19:52:37Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > No incidents like that seem to occur in the UK or elsewhere. At least I have not read of them and they are not in the records. Are you disputing the fact that a person can still function after being shot multiple times? If a person is justified in shooting and have made the decision to shoot, I would hope and expect them to shoot until there is no longer a threat. That can be 1 shot, or it could be 14. [Here’s a guy who didn’t go down](http://www.policeone.com/patrol-issues/articles/6199620-Why-one-cop-carries-145-rounds-of-ammo-on-the-job/) after being hit 14 times with .45 caliber rounds. > [@Pjen](#): > > Any ‘investigation’ that finds shooting someone eight times when they are not armed is not being held to account. I think you mean to add ‘finds shooting someone eight times is justified’ or something to that effect. Can you honestly not conceive of any situation where it would be justified to shoot an unarmed but otherwise dangerous person 8 times? ---
**Author:** ![LC\_Strawhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@LC\_Strawhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LC_Strawhouse)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-the-elephant-in-the-room/705655/155 "2014-11-26T19:55:27Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > You might educate yourself about the misuse of crime statistics here which shows that the USA under records violence that is not 'aggravated" whereas the UK includes and knife usage as a violent crime.[http://dispellingthemythukvsusguns.wordpress.com/](http://dispellingthemythukvsusguns.wordpress.com/) Come on, why don’t you just admit that you live in a violent chav-infested nation which has less police violence simply because they are more reluctant to police certain communities. ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-the-elephant-in-the-room/705655/156 "2014-11-26T19:56:44Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > If entering a situation which is unsafe, being unaccompanied as a police officer is taking a great risk, armed or not. > > If you are hit through a window while alone, you can withdraw and call for back up. > > It was the fact that he had a gun and thought that he was in control that was at the root of he problem. I think you are completely unfamiliar with US police work and with US inner cities. Making these pronouncements makes you sound like someone telling a depressed person to “just cheer up” or an alcoholic to “just stop drinking”. You have no blessed idea what you are talking about. US officers do not have the luxury of waiting for backup before talking to someone on the street. They do not have partners who ride with them in most cases. Once the guy was through his window, how exactly is he backing up and leaving? With someone hanging out as he drives? While wrestling for his weapon? I grew up in the center of L.A. Gunfire, helicopters, cops door to door, running gun fights, drugs, all of it was common. I thought everyone lived that way until I left for university. Suggesting that cops can handle what an Inner City throws at them without guns is ignorant. You’d need martial law to clean the place out first, or are you suggesting that we just board up certain communities and let them rot? Gun violence is not an elephant in this country. It’s an acknowledged issue. Patronizing little slams from outsiders who clearly have no frame of reference really don’t move the debate forward. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-the-elephant-in-the-room/705655/157 "2014-11-26T20:10:13Z")
> [@LC\_Strawhouse](#): > > Come on, why don’t you just admit that you live in a violent chav-infested nation which has less police violence simply because they are more reluctant to police certain communities. Did you read that highly-sourced link that pjen posted? The difference in the definition of violent crime between nations always comes up in this type of thread, for all the good it does. ---
**Author:** ![LC\_Strawhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@LC\_Strawhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LC_Strawhouse)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-the-elephant-in-the-room/705655/158 "2014-11-26T20:25:54Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > Did you read that highly-sourced link that pjen posted? The difference in the definition of violent crime between nations always comes up in this type of thread, for all the good it does. I wasn’t trying to get bogged down in whose statistics are better (always a losing battle with Pjen), just trying to broadly point out that there isn’t much basis for someone living in the U.K. to claim to have all the answers to issues like this. I’ll bet that the female citizens of Rotherham would have appreciated a bit of U.S. style police activity! ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-the-elephant-in-the-room/705655/159 "2014-11-26T20:29:32Z")
> [@LC\_Strawhouse](#): > > I wasn’t trying to get bogged down in whose statistics are better (always a losing battle with Pjen) Yeah, I remember the referendum thread too 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![LC\_Strawhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@LC\_Strawhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LC_Strawhouse)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-the-elephant-in-the-room/705655/160 "2014-11-26T20:36:51Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > Yeah, I remember the referendum thread too 🙂 LOL. Yes, the referendum thread which argued that the UK is run by nasty uncivilized Tories and needs to be broken up. I guess the UK can do no wrong when it comes to policing though. 😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-the-elephant-in-the-room/705655.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-the-elephant-in-the-room/705655.md?page=9)