# Ferguson- the elephant in the room **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 26, 2014, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-the-elephant-in-the-room/705655 "2014-11-26T07:01:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-the-elephant-in-the-room/705655/161 "2014-11-26T21:05:00Z")
> [@LC\_Strawhouse](#): > > I guess the UK can do no wrong when it comes to policing though. šŸ˜ƒ It has its moments, both good and bad. Itā€™s nothing like as militarized as some US forces seem to be, but the whole structure of policing here is different, different demographics, different problems, different history. _shrug_ Direct comparisons have little merit, I think. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-the-elephant-in-the-room/705655/162 "2014-11-26T21:13:29Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > The police themselves regularly vote not to carry firearms normally. Do you have a citation on that, because I find it, well, hard to believe. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-the-elephant-in-the-room/705655/163 "2014-11-26T22:08:11Z")
> [@LC\_Strawhouse](#): > > Come on, why donā€™t you just admit that you live in a violent chav-infested nation which has less police violence simply because they are more reluctant to police certain communities. Because that is not the truth. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-the-elephant-in-the-room/705655/164 "2014-11-26T22:09:37Z")
> [@Disposable Hero](#): > > The senior officer might request armed officers but if the situation requires it said officers can open fire authorised or not. The senior officer canā€™t issue a shoot/donā€™t shoot order. They can only shoot on instruction from Bronze command. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-the-elephant-in-the-room/705655/165 "2014-11-26T22:12:33Z")
> [@LC\_Strawhouse](#): > > LOL. Yes, the referendum thread which argued that the UK is run by nasty uncivilized Tories and needs to be broken up. I guess the UK can do no wrong when it comes to policing though. šŸ˜ƒ Congratulations. Double straw man argument. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-the-elephant-in-the-room/705655/166 "2014-11-26T22:14:38Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > Do you have a citation on that, because I find it, well, hard to believe. But one thing is clear. When asked, police officers say overwhelmingly that they wish to remain unarmed. A 2006 survey of 47,328 Police Federation members found 82% did not want officers to be routinely armed on duty, despite almost half saying their lives had been ā€œin serious jeopardyā€ during the previous three years. > **[Why British police donā€™t have guns](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-19641398)** > > The deaths of two female police constables have brought into focus the unarmed status of most British police. Why does Britain hold firm against issuing guns to officers on the beat? ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-the-elephant-in-the-room/705655/167 "2014-11-26T22:16:21Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > It has its moments, both good and bad. Itā€™s nothing like as militarized as some US forces seem to be, but the whole structure of policing here is different, different demographics, different problems, different history. _shrug_ Direct comparisons have little merit, I think. Agreed. But it does show that policing by consent is possible in a modern democracy. And that use of firearms is a choice predicated on politics. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-the-elephant-in-the-room/705655/168 "2014-11-26T22:22:59Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Agreed. But it does show that policing by consent is possible in a modern democracy. And that use of firearms is a choice predicated on politics. You have yet to address in a realistic fashion the question I asked of you earlier - what a European police officer would have done differently that would not have resulted in Brown being killed. I do not acknowledge that ā€œrun away and call for helpā€ upon observing two men jaywalking, or upon being physically assaulted through the window of oneā€™s cruiser, is an appropriate response for a policeman of my nation, your nation, or _any_ nation. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-the-elephant-in-the-room/705655/169 "2014-11-26T22:28:49Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > But one thing is clear. When asked, police officers say overwhelmingly that they wish to remain unarmed. > > A 2006 survey of 47,328 Police Federation members found 82% did not want officers to be routinely armed on duty, despite almost half saying their lives had been ā€œin serious jeopardyā€ during the previous three years. > > [Why British police donā€™t have guns - BBC News](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-19641398) Of course, your public (in 2006 anyway) was pretty split on the issue (47% for, 48% against arming police), and this only really affects your version of beat copsā€¦you do, in fact, have armed response units and your cruisers are armed, as well as about 5% of your regular force (mostly sergeants and officers, which is really unsurprising considering you are Brits :p). And really you guys cling to this not arming beat cops thing because of historical reasons stemming from the whole red coats massive military force verse having a peoples police force (again, unsurprising considering the source). Finally, in the article you link to it says quite clearly that this unarmed cops thingy is pretty much an outlier with most other countries, not just us evil/stupid/uncivilized Americans. The fact that the majority of the beat cops not currently armed (well, again, in 2006ā€¦is this the same today as then?) donā€™t want to be armed is true enough, but hardly tells the whole story. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-the-elephant-in-the-room/705655/170 "2014-11-26T22:47:21Z")
> [@XT](#): > > (mostly sergeants and officers, which is really unsurprising considering you are Brits :p). Intrigued by what you mean by this in terms of UK policing. Hereā€™s a hint: even constables are officers, ehe. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-the-elephant-in-the-room/705655/171 "2014-11-26T22:48:55Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > Intrigued by what you mean by this in terms of UK policing. Hereā€™s a hint: even constables are officers, ehe. Read the articleā€¦it talks about who is armed and who isnā€™t which was the point I was getting at. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-the-elephant-in-the-room/705655/172 "2014-11-26T22:51:05Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > You have yet to address in a realistic fashion the question I asked of you earlier - what a European police officer would have done differently that would not have resulted in Brown being killed. > > I do not acknowledge that ā€œrun away and call for helpā€ upon observing two men jaywalking, or upon being physically assaulted through the window of oneā€™s cruiser, is an appropriate response for a policeman of my nation, your nation, or _any_ nation. And there lies your problem. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-the-elephant-in-the-room/705655/173 "2014-11-26T22:52:12Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > And there lies your problem. So let me just confirm this; it is your opinion that a police officer, a person sworn to uphold the law and serve the cause of justice, upon observing a crime in progress, should run away and allow the crime to go unimpeded? ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-the-elephant-in-the-room/705655/174 "2014-11-26T22:56:41Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Of course, your public (in 2006 anyway) was pretty split on the issue (47% for, 48% against arming police), and this only really affects your version of beat copsā€¦you do, in fact, have armed response units and your cruisers are armed, as well as about 5% of your regular force (mostly sergeants and officers, which is really unsurprising considering you are Brits :p). And really you guys cling to this not arming beat cops thing because of historical reasons stemming from the whole red coats massive military force verse having a peoples police force (again, unsurprising considering the source). Finally, in the article you link to it says quite clearly that this unarmed cops thingy is pretty much an outlier with most other countries, not just us evil/stupid/uncivilized Americans. > > The fact that the majority of the beat cops not currently armed (well, again, in 2006ā€¦is this the same today as then?) donā€™t want to be armed is true enough, but hardly tells the whole story. Police remain unarmed in general. There are response units and there are armed police at airports and embassies and elsewhere. Police Scotland tried regularly arming firearm trained officers earlier this year and were forced to stop the experiment by public protests. The rest of your historical and current take is poorly argued and largely irrelevant. There is a strong commitment to policing by consent rather than by force- even dropping the term Police Force for Police Service. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-the-elephant-in-the-room/705655/175 "2014-11-26T22:57:37Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > There is a strong commitment to policing by consent rather than by force- even dropping the term Police Force for Police Service. And what happens when your ā€œservantsā€ encounter people who _donā€™t_ consent to being policed? ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-the-elephant-in-the-room/705655/176 "2014-11-26T23:01:25Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Read the articleā€¦it talks about who is armed and who isnā€™t which was the point I was getting at. In the UK all police are in the office of constable from raw recruits to the Chief Constable of the Metropolitan Police. All are officers - police officers. There is no separate officer class. Armed officers are usually constables and sergeants with management by Inspectors and Superintendents who are usually firearm trained though hands off. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-the-elephant-in-the-room/705655/177 "2014-11-26T23:02:58Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > So let me just confirm this; it is your opinion that a police officer, a person sworn to uphold the law and serve the cause of justice, upon observing a crime in progress, should run away and allow the crime to go unimpeded? Nice straw man. Police should ensure they have appropriate support before engaging in a dangerous situation. It is called tactical awareness. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-the-elephant-in-the-room/705655/178 "2014-11-26T23:04:05Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > And what happens when your ā€œservantsā€ encounter people who _donā€™t_ consent to being policed? They use skill and minimum force. It works well. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-the-elephant-in-the-room/705655/179 "2014-11-26T23:05:25Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Police should ensure they have appropriate support before engaging in a dangerous situation. It is called tactical awareness. And you define ā€œobserving a person in the act of jaywalkingā€ as a ā€œdangerous situationā€ that requires ā€œappropriate supportā€? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-the-elephant-in-the-room/705655/180 "2014-11-26T23:06:29Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > They use skill and minimum force. It works well. What is the minimum amount of force required when you are being pinned inside a vehicle and punched in the face by a person who outweighs you? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-the-elephant-in-the-room/705655.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-the-elephant-in-the-room/705655.md?page=10)