Ferguson- the elephant in the room

[Jackmannii]

@clairobscur

The fact that the American policeis way too trigger happy is made obvious by advices posted on this board. For instance, if stopped by the police on the road, you should keep your hands on the wheel, anounce your intentions before moving, don’t suddenly reach for the glove compartment or your pocket, etc…

Basically, it means that being stopped by the police is considered dangerous and potentially lethal for a law-abiding citizen, even during a routine interaction.

You might want to consider circumstances of a stop before making such a sweeping and false assumption.

Officers are going to be far less wary when stopping a motorist speeding in broad daylight on an interstate, compared to a nighttime stop of a vehicle with multiple occupants that has just left a area known for drug buys. And even in the latter case, it is not typical for a driver to get a gun drawn on him just for reaching for the glove box for the registration.

I’d bet that collectively, the American posters on this board have been stopped thousands of times by police over the years for traffic infractions and in connection with various investigations, and that only a minuscule minority ever felt that their lives were in jeopardy (and of those few, most were probably being paranoid ninnies).

[Grumman]

@foolsguinea

Are you arguing from evidence or from authority? It has been asserted by residents of the neighborhood that police did remove at least one bullet from a wall of a building there. Maybe “wildly” is an overstatement.

I am arguing from evidence. There is no place for bullets fired at Brown’s back. Two volleys of bullets were fired, and bullets from both volleys hit Brown in the front. Therefore, it is impossible that either of those volleys was fired at Brown’s back.

[Fuji]

@Jackmannii

I’d bet that collectively, the American posters on this board have been stopped thousands of times by police over the years for traffic infractions and in connection with various investigations, and that only a minuscule minority ever felt that their lives were in jeopardy (and of those few, most were probably being paranoid ninnies).

So? I’d bet that collectively, the American posters on this board have little experience with Driving While Black. Just because it doesn’t happen to you doesn’t mean that it’s not a problem.

[Pjen]

@Martin_Hyde

“Allegedly” surrendering is a meaningless term. The preponderance of released evidence and the grand jury ruling suggests that those who have alleged such were not actual witnesses to the event. Even the witnesses most condemnatory of Wilson didn’t suggest Brown was surrendering. They suggested Brown seemed shocked that he had been shot and was turning toward Wilson, but not charging him. Those are the witnesses most condemnatory of Wilson.

To me this goes back to the Zimmerman case, people that don’t know anything about violence assume that being beaten up is a small thing and should never warrant a lethal response. The reality is lots of people suffer life-changing or life-ending injuries from a beating. When you’re a police officer you don’t get to lose a fight, because that likely means the person beating you up can get your gun.

Batons are great when they can be used, but in a situation where you’re already losing a fist fight you’re probably not in a good position to use one. Batons cannot be used to strike the head of a suspect, but instead are to be used for pain compliance. For this reason they are really only tactically useful when more than one police officer is trying to subdue a violently resisting suspect.

A private citizen isn’t required to use pepper spray in lieu of a gun if they can demonstrate they were in fear of bodily harm or death, and neither are police.

In the UK pepper spray or equivalents are illegal for the general public. It causes few known problems- much like the absence of firearms.

[Martin_Hyde]

I don’t care that pepper spray is banned from the public in the UK since it has nothing to do with the topic being discussed.

[clairobscur]

@Jackmannii

You might want to consider circumstances of a stop before making such a sweeping and false assumption.

Officers are going to be far less wary when stopping a motorist speeding in broad daylight on an interstate, compared to a nighttime stop of a vehicle with multiple occupants that has just left a area known for drug buys. And even in the latter case, it is not typical for a driver to get a gun drawn on him just for reaching for the glove box for the registration.

I’d bet that collectively, the American posters on this board have been stopped thousands of times by police over the years for traffic infractions and in connection with various investigations, and that only a minuscule minority ever felt that their lives were in jeopardy (and of those few, most were probably being paranoid ninnies).

I was basing my opinion on the advices posted here time and again about how to react when stopped by the police.

[tomndebb]

@clairobscur

The fact that the American policeis way too trigger happy is made obvious by advices posted on this board. For instance, if stopped by the police on the road, you should keep your hands on the wheel, anounce your intentions before moving, don’t suddenly reach for the glove compartment or your pocket, etc…

Basically, it means that being stopped by the police is considered dangerous and potentially lethal for a law-abiding citizen, even during a routine interaction.

What you are leaving out of your analysis is the danger to the police in a traffic stop in the U.S. Each year a half dozen police die after pulling over a car for a routine traffic stop while several more are injured or escape injury when the shooter misses then when firing. Since the police generally have no reason to believe that a driver who was speeding or failing to signal a turn is an armed criminal, the fact that so many drivers do open fire has tended to make police a bit jumpy.
Basically, it means that stopping a vehicle is considered a dangerous and potentially lethal act by a policeman, even during a routine interaction.
Some cops have certainly overreacted or acted wrongly, but laying the blame on the police for being cautious ignores reality.

Similarly, while “hardened criminals” in Europe may refrain from shooting police, there are enough amateur criminals in the U.S. who do shoot police that police tend to be wary of all sorts of situations.

As to the kid who was shot in Cleveland, there were errors made in that event, but he was not “reaching” for a weapon, he was drawing it. He was also not a little kid. When the police called for an ambulance, they identified him as being “about 20” although he was 12.

[Pjen]

@Martin_Hyde

I don’t care that pepper spray is banned from the public in the UK since it has nothing to do with the topic being discussed.

Just interesting that it is possible to run a civilised society without the public arming themselves with firearms or other assault weapons such as pepper spray!

[bengangmo]

@tomndebb

What you are leaving out of your analysis is the danger to the police in a traffic stop in the U.S. Each year a half dozen police die after pulling over a car for a routine traffic stop while several more are injured or escape injury when the shooter misses then when firing. Since the police generally have no reason to believe that a driver who was speeding or failing to signal a turn is an armed criminal, the fact that so many drivers do open fire has tended to make police a bit jumpy.
Basically, it means that stopping a vehicle is considered a dangerous and potentially lethal act by a policeman, even during a routine interaction.
Some cops have certainly overreacted or acted wrongly, but laying the blame on the police for being cautious ignores reality.

Similarly, while “hardened criminals” in Europe may refrain from shooting police, there are enough amateur criminals in the U.S. who do shoot police that police tend to be wary of all sorts of situations.

As to the kid who was shot in Cleveland, there were errors made in that event, but he was not “reaching” for a weapon, he was drawing it. He was also not a little kid. When the police called for an ambulance, they identified him as being “about 20” although he was 12.

This post seems to me, to just reinforce the whole idea that you are too trigger happy in the US, there are too many guns and too much violence, rather than being a defence for it.