# Ferguson: Where is the money supposed to come from? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 10, 2016, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-where-is-the-money-supposed-to-come-from/745760 "2016-02-10T22:53:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2016, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-where-is-the-money-supposed-to-come-from/745760/1 "2016-02-10T22:53:52Z")
Ferguson City Council wants to revise an agreement negotiated with the Justice Department due to concerns about the cost. [Mayor: Ferguson ready to take on Justice Department](http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2016/02/10/ferguson-justice-department-tentative-agreement-negotiations/80185820/) > [@](#): > > The push to amend the deal comes after Knowles and council members raised concerns it could cost nearly $10 million over the next three years to implement. > > The city of 21,000 has a budget of about $14 million and is facing about $2.8 million in debt after the August 2014 police shooting death of an unarmed black teenager, Michael Brown, sparked sometimes violent protests. Much of the debt accrued from police overtime during the unrest following Brown’s death and lost tax revenue from businesses destroyed or badly damaged in rioting. Justice responded by [suing Ferguson](http://www.reuters.com/article/us-missouri-ferguson-justice-idUSKCN0VJ2E6). I wonder about the Justice Department position. Ferguson is a dirt poor city as it is. (And they are apparently going to lose some revenue that they used to make on fines, as part of their reform.) Now they suddently need to come up with a 20% increase in their budget. Where is the extra money supposed to come from? Does the Justice Department have some sort of great money-making scheme here, or do they just not give a flip about that? I would also appreciate some comment from the legal experts here. Suppose the Justice Department prevails in court but the city says “that’s all very nice but we don’t have the money for that”. What does a judge do? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2016, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-where-is-the-money-supposed-to-come-from/745760/2 "2016-02-10T23:01:48Z")
The extra money is supposed to come from wherever the city planned to get it when they entered into the consent decree. The city is essentially welching on a settlement agreement. As to what happens if they really don’t have it, the judge’s powers depend on what statute the provisions of the decree were reached under. The court’s powers to enforce orders made under federal civil rights legislation are far reaching; for example, the federal court that heard the Kansas City desegregation case was able to order not just the city but the state to pony up large amounts of money to build a single school system (and probably overstepped his authority a bit). ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2016, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-where-is-the-money-supposed-to-come-from/745760/3 "2016-02-10T23:02:06Z")
The city could declare bankruptcy. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2016, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-where-is-the-money-supposed-to-come-from/745760/4 "2016-02-10T23:06:37Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > The extra money is supposed to come from wherever the city planned to get it when they entered into the consent decree. They’re saying they didn’t appreciate how much it would cost until they completed an analysis recently. They never had a plan to get that much money. > [@](#): > > The city is essentially welching on a settlement agreement. That’s not my understanding of what happened. City negotiators worked out a deal with the JD, but it was never ratified by the City Council. By the time it came up for a vote, they had completed their cost analysis and decided they needed it amended. > [@](#): > > As to what happens if they really don’t have it, the judge’s powers depend on what statute the provisions of the decree were reached under. The court’s powers to enforce orders made under federal civil rights legislation are far reaching; for example, the federal court that heard the Kansas City desegregation case was able to order not just the city but the state to pony up large amounts of money to build a single school system (and probably overstepped his authority a bit). That doesn’t address the question (besides for the fact that the decree was never entered into, as above). The state had the money, or at least can come up with it. The question here is if Ferguson doesn’t and can’t. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2016, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-where-is-the-money-supposed-to-come-from/745760/5 "2016-02-10T23:09:53Z")
Obviously the city can cut other parts of its budget–which will be painful to the citizens. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2016, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-where-is-the-money-supposed-to-come-from/745760/6 "2016-02-10T23:12:58Z")
Here’s some more detail of the negotiating history. [Ferguson consent decree may be derailed because of cost](http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/ferguson-consent-decree-may-be-derailed-because-of-cost/article_5ca413ad-91d1-5874-ab74-e595bd0205ce.html) It seems pretty clear that RNATB was mistaken in his assertion that the decree has already been agreed to and is in force. > [@PastTense](#): > > Obviously the city can cut other parts of its budget–which will be painful to the citizens. I don’t know if it’s obvious that a city already in financial straights can cut 20% out of their budget. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2016, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-where-is-the-money-supposed-to-come-from/745760/7 "2016-02-10T23:15:01Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > That’s not my understanding of what happened. City negotiators worked out a deal with the JD, but it was never ratified by the City Council. By the time it came up for a vote, they had completed their cost analysis and decided they needed it amended. Ah, you are correct. I misread the USA Today article and thought it had said the city had approved the consent decree. > [@](#): > > That doesn’t address the question (besides for the fact that the decree was never entered into, as above). The state had the money, or at least can come up with it. The question here is if Ferguson doesn’t and can’t. It’s a tricky question because the liability of a state for debts and judgments against its subdivisions is a tricky area of law. If you’re asking me to pretend that the state doesn’t exist and to consider Ferguson in a vacuum, I don’t know. ---
**Author:** ![Pearl\_Clutching\_Provocateur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Pearl\_Clutching\_Provocateur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pearl_Clutching_Provocateur)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2016, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-where-is-the-money-supposed-to-come-from/745760/8 "2016-02-10T23:22:56Z")
Cut the police force by two thirds. There’s very little crime in Ferguson. It was only white cops harassing Black people anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2016, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-where-is-the-money-supposed-to-come-from/745760/9 "2016-02-11T00:54:06Z")
Perhaps we will discover that the means by which the counties in and around St Louis are broken up is economically nonviable and some sort of realignment is in order. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2016, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-where-is-the-money-supposed-to-come-from/745760/10 "2016-02-11T01:01:18Z")
> [@](#): > > That’s not my understanding of what happened. City negotiators worked out a deal with the JD, but it was never ratified by the City Council. By the time it came up for a vote, they had completed their cost analysis and decided they needed it amended. And so the City Council decided to amend the agreement without going back to the DOJ to re-negotiate. Sounds pretty one-sided. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2016, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-where-is-the-money-supposed-to-come-from/745760/11 "2016-02-11T01:24:06Z")
Yeah, judging by how fast they acted I’d say the DoJ also believes it was a one-sided action. It’ll be interesting to see how it plays out. The City Council HAS to be acting to try to get a better deal. But that plan fails if the DoJ just starts slapping them around with lawsuits they’re bound to lose. ---
**Author:** ![theR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/977dab/32.png) [@theR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/theR)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2016, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-where-is-the-money-supposed-to-come-from/745760/12 "2016-02-11T02:20:05Z")
Maybe they could start taxing the top few percent of earners locally in Ferguson since previously they’ve been fleecing the poorest for years or even generations. If they already have a local tax, which I doubt, then they should raise it starting with the highest earners. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2016, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-where-is-the-money-supposed-to-come-from/745760/13 "2016-02-11T02:44:21Z")
That’s the question, what are the limits of what the DOJ can do? Can they disband the city and county? ---
**Author:** ![GaryM](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garym/32/241_2.png) [@GaryM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaryM)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2016, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-where-is-the-money-supposed-to-come-from/745760/14 "2016-02-11T02:48:09Z")
> [@theR](#): > > Maybe they could start taxing the top few percent of earners locally in Ferguson since previously they’ve been fleecing the poorest for years or even generations. If they already have a local tax, which I doubt, then they should raise it starting with the highest earners. I used to live in Florissant which borders Ferguson. There probably aren’t any top earners still living there. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2016, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-where-is-the-money-supposed-to-come-from/745760/15 "2016-02-11T02:51:49Z")
> [@GaryM](#): > > I used to live in Florissant which borders Ferguson. There probably aren’t any top earners still living there. Right. The per capita income in Ferguson, MO is only $17,661, much less than the US average. > **[List of Missouri locations by per capita income](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missouri_locations_by_per_capita_income)** > > Missouri is the 30th richest state in the United States of America, with a per capita income of $19,936 (2000). > Note: Data is from the 2010 United States Census Data and the 2006-2010 American Community Survey 5-Year Estimates. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2016, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-where-is-the-money-supposed-to-come-from/745760/16 "2016-02-11T03:01:53Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > That’s the question, what are the limits of what the DOJ can do? Can they disband the city and county? It’s a legal gray area. For most of American history, municipal finance was fairly straightforward. City and county governments set local revenue policies and spent money more or less as they wished. Only recently have we had judges and now the Dept. of Justice stepping in and ordering local governments to spend enormous amounts of money on various things, without providing the money. The case of Missouri vs. Jenkins in 1977, which **Really Not All That Bright** referenced, was a groundbreaking case in that respect. [You can read all about it here.](http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1995-06-22/news/9506220051_1_kansas-city-schools-performance-of-minority-students-national-norms) What would happen if a city or county totally refused to comply or was financially unable to comply has probably never been established because it hasn’t happened. There are precedents for cities going bankrupt, and it tends to not be pretty. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2016, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-where-is-the-money-supposed-to-come-from/745760/17 "2016-02-11T13:45:49Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > Perhaps we will discover that the means by which the counties in and around St Louis are broken up is economically nonviable and some sort of realignment is in order. How does that work? Could the JD force some adjacent community to merge with Ferguson? I don’t see how they can do that. > [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > And so the City Council decided to amend the agreement without going back to the DOJ to re-negotiate. Sounds pretty one-sided. It’s not. They need to approve the agreement for it to take effect. They said they would approve it with certain amendments but not otherwise. This type of thing is pretty SOP, where negotiators work out a deal but still need to submit it for ratification by the membership or BOD etc. > [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > But that plan fails if the DoJ just starts slapping them around with lawsuits they’re bound to lose. The DoJ has lost one case of this sort. But in that case the judge found insufficient evidence of discrimination. I don’t know how it works if the pivotal issue is not the discrimination itself but the scope of the remedy. The core problem for the city is not just the expansive reach of the relevant statutes, but the vast resouces that the DoJ can bring to bear, which can itself crush a small and poor town like Ferguson. The settlement would cost millions that the city can’t afford but fighting it would also cost millions that the city can’t afford. This is not at all unusual. It’s like when union negotiators hammer out an agreement with management and then need to submit it to the membership for a vote. Or like when the State Department works out the details of a treaty and then submits it for ratification by the Senate. And so on, for any number of situations. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2016, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-where-is-the-money-supposed-to-come-from/745760/18 "2016-02-11T14:05:26Z")
> [@Pearl\_Clutching\_Provocateur](#): > > Cut the police force by two thirds. There’s very little crime in Ferguson. It was only white cops harassing Black people anyway. This [isn’t true](http://www.city-data.com/crime/crime-Ferguson-Missouri.html), of course. I think Ferguson needs to get creative. Raise traffic fines, and aggressively pursue those who default. But mostly for white people. That should make the Justice Department happy. Think of it as affirmative action for traffic offenses. No quotas, nothing unfair - simply widen the pool, the way affirmative action should work. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2016, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-where-is-the-money-supposed-to-come-from/745760/19 "2016-02-11T15:12:44Z")
While I don’t think that the DoJ could order a breakup or merger of municipalities - that’s certainly outside of their purview - I could see cold, hard economics requiring it. It seems clear at this point that a system like Ferguson’s - in which the city relies on abusing its citizenry to cover expenses - is unfeasible. Either the city must cut back its spending - which seems unlikely - or economies of scale should be achieved somehow. Whether that’s an actual merger with nearby cities or just a merging of services somehow is an unknown. Alternately, I could just see Ferguson giving up its incorporation and making it the counties problem. It wouldn’t be the first time such has happened. But a lot of cushy government gigs would evaporate so I see that as unlikely to occur. Still, the city council of Ferguson is unlikely to like any of their options. But that’s what happens when things get to this point. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2016, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-where-is-the-money-supposed-to-come-from/745760/20 "2016-02-11T15:29:21Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > While I don’t think that the DoJ could order a breakup or merger of municipalities - that’s certainly outside of their purview - I could see cold, hard economics requiring it. > > It seems clear at this point that a system like Ferguson’s - in which the city relies on abusing its citizenry to cover expenses - is unfeasible. Either the city must cut back its spending - which seems unlikely - or economies of scale should be achieved somehow. Whether that’s an actual merger with nearby cities or just a merging of services somehow is an unknown. It might “require it” on Ferguson’s end. But I don’t see why an another entity would want to take that on themselves. It’s worth noting that one of the modifications that Ferguson wants is that the consent decree not be binding on any other entity such as might take over the policing. This is because they’re thinking of turning over the policing to the county, and the county has apparently indicated that [they won’t take it if subject to the consent decree](http://abc7.com/news/federal-government-files-civil-rights-suit-against-ferguson/1195546/). [BTW, the last paragraph of my prior post was not supposed to be addressed to you - it was originally the second paragraph of my response to Rick Kitchen. But I lost track of it and briefly rewrote the paragraph in responding to Rick, and it somehow got to the end of the post. My apologies for any confusion.] [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-where-is-the-money-supposed-to-come-from/745760.md?page=2)