# Fermented foods and health **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 16, 2023, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fermented-foods-and-health/982729 "2023-04-16T02:22:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2023, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fermented-foods-and-health/982729/1 "2023-04-16T02:22:48Z")
Maybe this belongs more in Cafe Society as I am looking for both how people use fermented foods, and for discussion about the health aspects of their consumption, which apparently is not the healthy bacteria (probiotics) alone. It’s all pretty interesting. Inspired by this article. > **[Fermented-food diet increases microbiome diversity, decreases inflammatory...](https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2021/07/fermented-food-diet-increases-microbiome-diversity-lowers-inflammation)** > > Stanford researchers discover that a 10-week diet high in fermented foods boosts microbiome diversity and improves immune responses. Of note: > [@](#): > > Eating foods such as yogurt, kefir, fermented cottage cheese, kimchi and other fermented vegetables, vegetable brine drinks, and kombucha tea led to an increase in overall microbial diversity, with stronger effects from larger servings. “This is a stunning finding,” said [Justin Sonnenburg](https://profiles.stanford.edu/justin-sonnenburg), PhD, an associate professor of microbiology and immunology. “It provides one of the first examples of how a simple change in diet can reproducibly remodel the microbiota across a cohort of healthy adults.” > > In addition, four types of immune cells showed less activation in the fermented-food group. The levels of 19 inflammatory proteins measured in blood samples also decreased. One of these proteins, interleukin 6, has been linked to conditions such as rheumatoid arthritis, Type 2 diabetes and chronic stress. > > “Microbiota-targeted diets can change immune status, providing a promising avenue for decreasing inflammation in healthy adults,” said [Christopher Gardner](https://profiles.stanford.edu/christopher-gardner), PhD, the Rehnborg Farquhar Professor and director of nutrition studies at the [Stanford Prevention Research Center](https://prevention.stanford.edu/). “This finding was consistent across all participants in the study who were assigned to the higher fermented food group.” > > ### Microbe diversity stable in fiber-rich diet > > By contrast, none of these 19 inflammatory proteins decreased in participants assigned to a high-fiber diet rich in legumes, seeds, whole grains, nuts, vegetables and fruits. On average, the diversity of their gut microbes also remained stable. “We expected high fiber to have a more universally beneficial effect and increase microbiota diversity,” said [Erica Sonnenburg](https://profiles.stanford.edu/erica-sonnenburg), PhD, a senior research scientist in basic life sciences, microbiology and immunology. “The data suggest that increased fiber intake alone over a short time period is insufficient to increase microbiota diversity.” Please note: fiber is of major importance and this study does not dispute that. But I am surprised both that fiber (prebiotic) did not have more impact on microbiome diversity, and that the impact of fermented foods included increasing diversity _beyond_ the organisms in the food. So thoughts about the health impacts of the food and how much fermented food do you eat and what sorts? ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2023, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fermented-foods-and-health/982729/2 "2023-04-16T02:42:45Z")
I have a lot of kimchi, maybe once a week. I do Nappa cabbage kimchi. A family friend sometimes gifts watermelon kimchi which is good too. I don’t eat it with health in mind, and couldn’t comment on that. Rather I like kimchi, it keeps well, it is easy to make and to retrieve, and it goes well with rice and beans. It’s also cheap. ETA: I will say that too much kimchi gives me reflux, so on a doctor’s advice I take an otc famotidine tablet before eating more than a small serving. I also keep Sauerkraut in my pantry. Again, no comment on nutrition or other health effects. I like the taste, it keeps well, and it is easy to make and retrieve. It goes well on sandwiches, baked potato, and egg/potato salad. Also, cheap. What can I say, I like cabbage. I eat the kraut much less frequently than kimchi, I think I’ve only made one jar this year. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![JaneDoe42](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/janedoe42/32/14104_2.png) [@JaneDoe42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JaneDoe42)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2023, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fermented-foods-and-health/982729/3 "2023-04-16T02:47:00Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > A family friend sometimes gifts watermelon kimchi which is good too. I would like to hear more about this if the OP doesn’t mind. To the subject, I am a cheesemaker, blessed are me, so of course I am going to rave about cultured yogurt, kif and butter, it is much better than the uncultured stuff. I was raised knowing that if you have tummy problems, eat some yogurt. As you noticed by my first question…I like kimchi. I think the helpful microbiota are good to have in your body, I don’t really think about them much when I’m thinking about what to have for dinner. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2023, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fermented-foods-and-health/982729/4 "2023-04-16T02:52:48Z")
So the watermelon rinds apparently work just as well as cabbage, if you cut them into strips. It’s much more spicy than the basic cabbage kimchi I make, but I don’t know the recipe used, sorry! Oh, and it doesn’t last as long either, only a week or so before it gets kind of gross and soggy. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![JaneDoe42](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/janedoe42/32/14104_2.png) [@JaneDoe42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JaneDoe42)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2023, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fermented-foods-and-health/982729/5 "2023-04-16T02:58:28Z")
You actually answered my question very nicely, thank you. I didn’t think that the meat would work very well and I have enjoyed watermelon rind pickles in my time but different folks figure out different things. I used to live a couple of miles away from a pickle factory and they would make watermelon pickles when watermelons were in season. They would make an announcement and all of the moms would take their biggest bowls to bring the meat home because otherwise it would go to the pig farm in _Fontana._ (this was 60 years ago, btw.) ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2023, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fermented-foods-and-health/982729/6 "2023-04-16T03:05:24Z")
I guess olives are also fermented, I use those with rice sometimes, omelettes, certain casseroles or other baked dishes, chicken dishes, pasta, or sometimes just as part of a snack with bread. Fresh is better tasting of course but the jar of olives soaked in brine is more economic. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2023, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fermented-foods-and-health/982729/7 "2023-04-16T03:09:56Z")
I’ve done some fermenting, usually of vegetables although I’ve made my own yogurt a couple times. (I’ll keep buying it, because mine was NOT better than store-bought, and it really is a lot of work for the results.) Some people really swear by it for gut health or other reasons, and if it works for them, why not? If I’m eating something fermented, it’s because I like it. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2023, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fermented-foods-and-health/982729/8 "2023-04-16T03:31:22Z")
FWIW my take is that probiotic supplements are WAY overhyped. Here’s a bit on that from the NYT. > **[The Problem With Probiotics (Published 2018)](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/22/upshot/the-problem-with-probiotics.html?unlocked_article_code=MoXlZN9YPYbXhd0OjvbGVZY5kD-E01To9IJCVVS-hH3aD2XSyZPYvm5_q8Vk8H4c7ZFjhnc3h348Im6uXkESlEcSzbP8fK3LayCE4dWBiZXzoTWK4wPSRbeCv1rgxV2zSWOn7Mjmu6wmfyMdto0vcvjgvMffSA4vGOQuoYWtca2iBhFJuaphewFZsS47PmZOYVKvOV4gEbVT0yPTa6cR_XicekVs0TiJOUEzfhndjo6ZrvqaeAHuuiWUUOJGKz29NCin9t1jWllqFAA4X6KO8UkK1bnfA56Mr0LtPiZ-gbRUIXMPS3zXOmtBBk7e8DnCXmKNt7-TZIz8rpWxJ1G4XdF6kqQ&smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare)** > > There are potential harms as well as benefits, and a lot of wishful thinking and imprecision in the marketing of products containing them. Fermented food though is more part of a nutritional pattern, and the products of fermentation may be of significance as well. I personally just like kefir and Greek yogurt with my morning cereal (and it is low enough lactose for me to handle), and enjoy various kimchis added to salads and as a condiment routinely. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2023, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fermented-foods-and-health/982729/9 "2023-04-16T04:44:19Z")
I have been fermenting napa cabbage, sweet onions, jalapeno, and garlic in honey since they are all yummy, easy to keep, basically a batch of condiments that easy to use in the kitchen. Makes a sandwich 10x better. I also brew beer, ferment wine and make sake. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2023, 10:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fermented-foods-and-health/982729/10 "2023-04-16T10:17:20Z")
I’ve never made any fermented foods from scratch, but eat a lot of cheese & non-sweet yogurt. Sauerkraut is good on many things too. Pickles & pickled jalapenos are always in the fridge. My aged MIL grew up working in her father’s cheese factory and ate cheese heavily her entire life. The more mold encrusted the better. She forgot to wake up one day at age 96-1/2, still mostly _compos mentis_ and feisty as ever. Apparently cheese is good for you. ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2023, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fermented-foods-and-health/982729/11 "2023-04-16T11:25:24Z")
When I’m eating healthy (which I currently am - it’s a high protein/ high fiber eating plan, with 6 small meals a day. When I’m not eating this way, it’s tons of sugar and maybe 1 meal a day), I eat yogurt as part of my breakfast, in part because of the “active yogurt cultures” - bacteria - that are supposed to be so beneficial to the digestive system. ---
**Author:** ![Pardel-Lux](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pardel-lux/32/20182_2.png) [@Pardel-Lux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pardel-Lux)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2023, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fermented-foods-and-health/982729/12 "2023-04-16T12:27:13Z")
I would treat lactic fermentation and alcoholic fermentation separately, otherwise we are mixing kimchi, sauerkraut, cheese, yogurt, beer and wine. All very healthy and tasty, but in a different way. I have tried several recipes for all kind of fermenttable stuff, I mostly liked it (my wife less so). I don’t mind if they are healthy, for me it is the fun of trying that out that makes it interesting. [Here](https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2018/mar/07/pickle-ferment-recipes-six-of-the-best) are a couple of recipes from _the Guardian_ I found on my favourites list, but there must be millions of such recipes. [Here](https://www.japan-guide.com/e/e2349.html) is another one, with Japanese pickling methods and varieties. That is very entertaining, often fast and very tasty. ---
**Author:** ![snowthx](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowthx/32/10660_2.png) [@snowthx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snowthx)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2023, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fermented-foods-and-health/982729/13 "2023-04-16T12:43:51Z")
I love kimchi and sauerkraut and always have at least one of them in the fridge. I try to get the good stuff from the Asian market, or the kraut from the guy at the farmer’s market, but regular supermarket stuff is good otherwise. I dont add either to much else, other than the kraut on brats occasionally, but just have it straight out of the jar for a refreshing snack. As for the whole probiotic thing, I suspect much of it is woo and unnecessary, unless you are having a health issue and your doctor advises you to take it. Otherwise, I am sure Greek yogurt and the like is all most people need. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2023, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fermented-foods-and-health/982729/14 "2023-04-16T13:06:37Z")
My wife and I eat yogurt every few days, and when we get takeout from the local Korean restaurant, kimchi is part of it. My wife eats natto now and then, but it’s so visually unappealing that I can’t even bring myself to try it. ---
**Author:** ![Die\_Capacitrix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/die_capacitrix/32/9_2.png) [@Die\_Capacitrix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Die_Capacitrix)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2023, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fermented-foods-and-health/982729/15 "2023-04-16T13:41:38Z")
Yogurt and cheese are in regular rotation here. I love sauerkraut, but it does horrible things to my husband’s innards, so he no longer eats it. If there’s lettuce around, it’ll be doused with balsamic vinegar, the good stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2023, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fermented-foods-and-health/982729/16 "2023-04-16T15:04:30Z")
Awhile back I was drinking kefir pretty regularly to help with, um, regularity. I’m uncertain that it had much effect. There’s some concern that introducing healthier strains of bacteria into your gut through probiotics [may not actually be that healthy](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34226711/), if the new bacteria also happen to carry genes for [antibiotic resistance](http://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32938241/). It might be especially problematic for those in less than ideal health who could develop resistance to vancomycin, which has been a front-line drug for treating MRSA. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2023, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fermented-foods-and-health/982729/17 "2023-04-16T16:37:47Z")
I can only get to the full article of the first one cited; the second is beyond a wall. Still that first article is very interesting. Thank you for the link. Before discussing it, if you care to, I do want to emphasize my already stated … skepticism … of the [$58 billion probiotic supplement industry.](https://www.grandviewresearch.com/industry-analysis/probiotics-market) I do not think that fermented foods as a regular part of a dietary pattern is quite the same thing, any more than supplemental vitamins are the same thing as vitamins obtained in complete foods as part of a nutrition pattern. That said … The article has some fascinating specific results, looking specifically on the expansion of resistance genes in the gut (the resistome) _after antibiotic use_, measuring not in stool but by direct gut sampling, comparing non treatment, fecal transplant, and with a commercial probiotic supplement. Relevant to this discussion is that the probiotic after antibiotics arm had an expansion of the resistome, while both the fecal transplant and no treatment arms recovered to baseline, AND that the source of the antibiotic resistance genes (ARGs) was NOT from the probiotic but by fostering the expansion of ARGs of the endogenous microbiome! This at first read possibly surprising finding is completely consistent with the findings in the article I linked to in the OP: in both cases, fermented foods with active species, and probiotics post-antibiotics, an expansion of diversity of species not of the food/probiotic was obtained. In the fermented foods given to healthy individuals this expansion of diversity was putatively of benefit, associated with other positive markers. In the context of immediately after several broad spectrum antibiotics the expansion allowed ARGs to bloom, increasing the resistome. So indeed the popular thought to take probiotics during and after being on antibiotics may be having a negative impact rather than a positive one, actually fostering the expansion of antibiotic resistance rather than the reseeding with healthy bacteria that people hope for. Harms more than goods. But increasing diversity while in good baseline health, ideally antibiotic naive, still seems beneficial. And I am still very curious about the mechanism by which fermented foods and probiotics, in this circumstance anyway, increases microbiome diversity not of the organisms they contain. Fascinating. ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2023, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fermented-foods-and-health/982729/18 "2023-04-16T18:58:11Z")
In medical school, we learned there _was_ a microbiome. And that one third of nerves supplied the gut. Given trillions of bacteria, enough to weigh a couple pounds, and the reasonable idea they have the potential to influence a lot of other things, I don’t think we really know _that much_ about them (though pundits will always pontificate and always have). Bacterial counts are hard to measure with accuracy and consistency (apart from the few causing known disease which have of course been historically emphasized), many are hard or impossible to even type, and if you can’t easily accurately measure them assessing change from the effects of whatever is much harder. You can look at available prebiotics, which contain a wide variety of bacteria _deemed_ beneficial. How this beneficence was determined, whether changes occur, how these are measured in many people with varying diets, how long they last, what are their short and long term effects? In a decade we will know much more. Some cultures enjoy fermented foods more than others, which has been considered in terms of longevity and gastric cancers. I eat them once in a while, without too many specialty foods, but I suspect adequate fibre will also turn out to be more important than credited and am more diligent about using high quality sources of this. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2023, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fermented-foods-and-health/982729/19 "2023-04-17T02:52:48Z")
> [@Dr\_Paprika](#): > > I suspect adequate fibre will also turn out to be more important than credited To be very clear, adequate fiber, from a variety of food sources, is credited as being _hugely_ important. Specific to fermented foods, beyond the probiotics aspect, there is this about other health promoting components. > **[Fermented Foods: Their Health-Promoting Components and Potential Effects on...](https://www.mdpi.com/2311-5637/9/2/118)** > > Fermented foods play a significant role in the diets of many cultures, and fermentation has been recognized for its many health benefits. During fermentation, the physical and biochemical changes due to microorganisms are crucial to the long-term...