# Fermi's Paradox and the 'Prime Directive'? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 15, 2021, 8:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fermis-paradox-and-the-prime-directive/930582 "2021-01-15T08:59:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 8\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![EastUmpqua](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eastumpqua/32/6025_2.png) [@EastUmpqua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EastUmpqua)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2021, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fermis-paradox-and-the-prime-directive/930582/61 "2021-03-06T02:40:33Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Has anyone considered that we are the first (or among the first) intelligent species to develop which is why we don’t see a lot of advanced civilizations out there? We might see more evidence of advanced technological civilizations out there if we had the ability to read neutrino flavor-modulation messages. Has anyone considered that we might not even be the first intelligent species to develop technology on Earth? The Proxima b EM signal might not violate the Copernican Principle if the beacon was placed by a civilization from Earth 67 million years ago. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2021, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fermis-paradox-and-the-prime-directive/930582/62 "2021-03-06T12:17:14Z")
> [@EastUmpqua](#): > > Has anyone considered that we might not even be the first intelligent species to develop technology on Earth? It depends what is meant by “technology”. If we mean harnessing fire, constructing flint weapons and similar levels of technology, then yes, we have good evidence of other hominid species than Homo sapiens constructing technology. Beyond that, no, it’s not a plausible option. We would be able to detect the footprint of a civilization even a fraction as advanced and/or messy as ours any time in the last couple hundred million years (humans right now are laying down our own geological layer). Let alone becoming interstellar. Let alone the issue of what candidate species even exist and where they fit in the fossil record. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2022, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fermis-paradox-and-the-prime-directive/930582/63 "2022-02-20T02:54:32Z")
Bumped this for you, Jim\_B. > [@Fermi Paradox and A 'Prime Directive'?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fermi-paradox-and-a-prime-directive/959804): > > Now, I know the [Fermi’s Paradox](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermi_paradox) has been done to death, on these, and just about every other board. So I want to make clear that this is not just an average one of those, all over again. It’s just I’ve noticed that here, and other places too as I’ve said, they never seem to consider some type of Galactic [Prime Directive](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prime_Directive) as a possible solution. At least not seriously. So this thread will be devoted to that. Deviate from that explanation, if you must. But do so only briefly. Understand … ---
**Author:** ![eburacum45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eburacum45/32/8690_2.png) [@eburacum45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eburacum45)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2022, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fermis-paradox-and-the-prime-directive/930582/64 "2022-02-21T11:38:42Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > Bumped this for you, Jim\_B. Thanks! Now this thread is stuck in a closed timelike curve! We are doomed to repeat it for ever. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2022, 8:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fermis-paradox-and-the-prime-directive/930582/65 "2022-02-24T08:50:01Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > You’ll notice that the Ancient Astronaut theory only applies to structures built by non-European cultures. Has anyone ever suggested that aliens helped build the Colosseum? No, but some have claimed aliens built Stonehenge. ---
**Author:** ![Tibby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tibby/32/17030_2.png) [@Tibby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tibby)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2022, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fermis-paradox-and-the-prime-directive/930582/66 "2022-02-24T11:29:33Z")
I don’t find the Fermi Paradox all that paradoxical. First, we must consider that the vast majority of the universe is forever closed off to us due to FTL expansion. Unless our understanding of physics is completely wrong, this leaves only a tiny fraction of the universe (our local galactic cluster) where travel, communication, or even detection is remotely possible. Second, we must ask why any super-intelligent species within earshot would want to communicate with us, a subpar-intelligent species, or even allow their presence to be detectable. If a super-advanced civilization wishes to remain undetectable, surely they have the ability to do so. Narrow-focused, non-leaky communication should be easy and the norm for them. Harvesting resources: why would any super-advanced civilization travel millions of light-years to gather resources that they can simply synthesize close to home? Surely any super-intelligent species has mastered the art of nucleosynthesis and can manufacture virtually any element from the abundance of matter close to home. Expand and conquer: I believe war and conquest is strictly the mindset of lesser-advanced civilizations, like us, who must compete for limited resources. When you have virtually unlimited space and resources at your disposal in your vicinity, there’s no need to travel far away and fight for more. Slave labor: surely advanced civilizations have mastered advanced robotics and AI. Why fight for relatively low IQ meat-bag slaves, like us, far away when you can simply manufacture high-IQ, nearly indestructible slaves close to home? Quest for knowledge: Surely a super-advanced civilization has AI with super-precise predictive power. Example: Alien 1: _Sir, our AI predicts that that spot [points to the Milky Way galaxy] has ~3 planets inhabited by carbon-based subpar-intelligent apex species with bilateral symmetry and a penchant for war and pop culture. Shall we send some of our self-replicating probes there to investigate?_ Alien 2: _Naw, if our AI says they’re there, they’re there. We don’t need to see ‘em to believe. Besides, they sound boring. Send the probes to Andromeda, that’s where the cool stuff is._ Prime Directive: Would you care about the welfare of some boorish primitive species that evolved on a planet millions of light-years away? They probably don’t care either. In short, there’s an abundance of space and matter within an area millions of light-year radius from any likely advanced civilization to suit their needs. No need to travel far to get more. And what’s to be gained by communicating with a lesser evolved species? It would be like us hoping to gain knowledge communicating with bacteria. Lastly, remaining undetectable would be trifling easy for any super-advanced civilization. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2022, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fermis-paradox-and-the-prime-directive/930582/67 "2022-02-24T13:49:06Z")
> [@Tibby](#): > > this leaves only a tiny fraction of the universe (our local galactic cluster) where travel, communication, or even detection is remotely possible. Still a whole lotta stars in that area. Our galaxy alone has more than a couple. > [@Tibby](#): > > Second, we must ask why any super-intelligent species within earshot would want to communicate with us, a subpar-intelligent species Most people pondering the Fermi Paradox don’t assume that they are deliberately trying to communicate with us. Or even that it is their communication that we are likely to detect at all. (Yes, that is where SETI is looking, but that’s because it’s easier to find your keys near the lightpost, even if you are pretty sure that’s not where you left them.) > [@Tibby](#): > > If a super-advanced civilization wishes to remain undetectable, surely they have the ability to do so. Unless our understanding of physics is completely wrong, that’s easier said than done. > [@Tibby](#): > > Harvesting resources: why would any super-advanced civilization travel millions of light-years to gather resources that they can simply synthesize close to home? Who says millions of light years? The galaxy isn’t that big. There are thousands of stars within just a few dozen light years of us. Millions within a thousand or so. > [@Tibby](#): > > Surely any super-intelligent species has mastered the art of nucleosynthesis and can manufacture virtually any element from the abundance of matter close to home. Surely? I don’t know about that. Plus, they are going to have a hard time making hydrogen, necessary for fusion or transmutation, without completely re-writing the laws of physics. > [@Tibby](#): > > I believe war and conquest is strictly the mindset of lesser-advanced civilizations, like us, who must compete for limited resources. Why do you think that if we become more advanced, we will lose that impetus? Why would other civilizations? It requires a significant amount of resources to get into space, any species of civilization capable of doing so must have a desire to grow and expand its capabilities. > [@Tibby](#): > > When you have virtually unlimited space and resources at your disposal in your vicinity, there’s no need to travel far away and fight for more. “Virtually unlimited” is not the same as unlimited. No amount of resources can keep up with exponential growth indefinitely. Any civ that chooses to stay home and keep within the resources of its local star will be overwhelmed by the ones that don’t. You only need _one_ civ that doesn’t “live within its means” to within relatively short order expand across the galaxy. > [@Tibby](#): > > Slave labor: surely advanced civilizations have mastered advanced robotics and AI. Why fight for relatively low IQ meat-bag slaves, like us, far away when you can simply manufacture high-IQ, nearly indestructible slaves close to home? That’s an extremely low plausibility among those who consider these things. No one advances it as a serious possibility. > [@Tibby](#): > > Surely a super-advanced civilization has AI with super-precise predictive power. > Example: > Alien 1: _Sir, our AI predicts that that spot [points to the Milky Way galaxy] has ~3 planets inhabited by carbon-based subpar-intelligent apex species with bilateral symmetry and a penchant for war and pop culture. Shall we send some of our self-replicating probes there to investigate?_ > Alien 2: _Naw, if our AI says they’re there, they’re there. We don’t need to see ‘em to believe. Besides, they sound boring. Send the probes to Andromeda, that’s where the cool stuff is._ Alien 3: Besides, we will be there soon enough anyway, we aren’t sending probes to individual systems, we are sending probes out to pretty much _all_ systems as they gather resources. We’ve already discovered X number of instances of intelligent life in the galaxy that we are in right now. Wait, how are we speaking English??? > [@Tibby](#): > > Prime Directive: Would you care about the welfare of some boorish primitive species that evolved on a planet millions of light-years away? They probably don’t care either. No, but that’s not what the Prime Directive is about. It is about the civs that you _do_ encounter as you explore the galaxy, it is not a directive to go find them. > [@Tibby](#): > > there’s an abundance of space and matter within an area millions of light-year radius from any likely advanced civilization to suit their needs. Now explain why there are no advanced civs within an area millions of light years from us. > [@Tibby](#): > > And what’s to be gained by communicating with a lesser evolved species? It would be like us hoping to gain knowledge communicating with bacteria. The communication that we have with bacteria isn’t exactly a two way conversation, but we certainly _do_ learn quite a bit from studying them. > [@Tibby](#): > > Lastly, remaining undetectable would be trifling easy for any super-advanced civilization. I don’t think that it is nearly as trifling as you claim, but you also are making the assumption that they have any reason to do so. How much effort do _we_ put into hiding from ants? Personally, my solution to it is that we are the first within many billions of light years, we are the very tip of the Bell Curve in terms of earliest to develop, and there probably won’t be another intelligent species within this bubble for tens of billions of years. The Universe isn’t that old. It seems old relative to a human lifetime, but compared to the expected lifetime of the universe, it is in its infancy. Our planet and star have been around for about a third the time that the universe has. A paradox is when you start with two assumptions, and find a conflict between them. Fermi noted that the universe is very old, and so must be full of life by now, and he also noted that we had not seen any of it. One of these assumptions must be wrong. The easier one to tackle is that latter, as the Fermi Paradox is immediately solved if we _do_ discover alien intelligent life. Though easier doesn’t mean that it is more likely to be successful, I have strong doubts that we will find it. The former is harder to tackle, we only have the one example of life evolving, and we don’t know if we were on the fast track, if we are slow to develop, or if we are in the middle of the road. We don’t know how rare the conditions on Earth are, nor how important those conditions are to developing intelligent life. That half of the Fermi Paradox can only be solved by extensive research, much of which has to take place off of Earth, as we search for life throughout the solar system with probes, and look for hints that indicate the possibility of life through powerful telescopes that are just starting to come online. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2022, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fermis-paradox-and-the-prime-directive/930582/68 "2022-02-28T16:42:42Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > we are the first within many billions of light years, we are the very tip of the Bell Curve in terms of earliest to develop, and there probably won’t be another intelligent species within this bubble for tens of billions of years. By which time the Earth will have been consumed by the Sun. On the other hand our galaxy will have merged with Andromeda. ~Max [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fermis-paradox-and-the-prime-directive/930582.md?page=3)