# Fess up a recent battle against your own ignorance **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [January 23, 2007, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fess-up-a-recent-battle-against-your-own-ignorance/389083 "2007-01-23T13:39:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9bcb4/32.png) [@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2007, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fess-up-a-recent-battle-against-your-own-ignorance/389083/1 "2007-01-23T13:39:12Z")
I’m admittedly short of some of the specifics, but… Mrs. WeHaveCookies and I were watching the Daily Show last week and the guest was author Michael Oren, talking about his book _[Power, Faith and Fantasy: America in the Middle East: 1776 to the Present](http://www.amazon.com/Power-Faith-Fantasy-America-Present/dp/0393058263/sr=8-1/qid=1169557202/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/102-3109633-8218543?ie=UTF8&s=books)_. One of his soundbytes certainly fought some of my personal ignorance (though didn’t do a damn thing for my crappy short-term memory. I had to try and confirm what I could with what was in the review comments :o ). Mr. Oren stated that the first documented overseas death of a member of the US Armed Forces was during a Middle East-related conflict back in the days of Thomas Jefferson’s presidency, during a naval campaign involving Barbary pirates. He also attributed some very wise though long ago words to a historic figure (whom I promptly forgot), warning people that any attempt at understanding the Middle East that involved projecting western culture/ideals/motivations onto the region was folly and would lead to nothing good. Needless to say, I wanna read his book. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2007, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fess-up-a-recent-battle-against-your-own-ignorance/389083/2 "2007-01-23T15:46:47Z")
Well, for me, it’s a book I’m reading… _Lies My Teacher Told Me_ by James Loewen–what is simultaneously an American History book and a slam on the way history is taught in schools. I was a great candidate to do this reading because I went to a terrible school and my high school history text book was ranked one of the “10 Worst” by reader’s digest. I find the truth far more fascinating than I ever found the white-washed version of history served up in school: I learned that all those “Great Feats in World Navigational History” we learned about were really "Great Feats in _European_ Navigational History – people from other cultures had achieved these things centuries before Europeans did. I learned that the first colony in what would later become the U.S. was founded by a group of abandoned slaves–Africans. I learned that Native American indigenous culture has had a far greater impact on the shape of our country than we often give credit for, and there is even reason to believe that our own ideals of democracy were influenced by the Iroquois League of Nations. The “Boston Tea Party” culprits were not “disguised” as Indians–they dressed as Indians because to many, this was a symbol of freedom and fairness. Many, many European colonists defected to live with indigenous folks and adapt their ways. I learned that Christopher Columbus was not just an ignorant bystander, but openly committed atrocities against the Haitians and other parts of Latin America–not just killing them, but raping them, enslaving them, cutting off pieces of their bodies, burning them alive, etc. Him and his ilk treated the indigenous people so horribly that there were frequent mass suicides (100 or more people at once) and accounts of women dropping their infants on the ground so their escape would not be hindered by the burden of a child. I learned that European colonists did not enslave people because they were racist–they became racist because they enslaved people–and furthermore, our particular version of slavery was one of the most incomprehensibly brutal versions in world history, so “other people had slaves too” is a terrible excuse. I learned that due to the long, exhaustive trek across Siberia in order to get to North America, the cold had basically killed off most germs and indigenous folks were virtually disease–and immunity–free. Their sparse population also prevented the spread of diseases. When they met up with the Europeans thousands of years later, they were sitting ducks for smallpox. When 99% of the colonists’ local community of indigenous people dropped dead from smallpox, the colonists saw it as a Miracle Sign From God that the New World was theirs for the taking–and didn’t hesitate to settle down in Massachusetts in the former community that indigenous folks had already built. Yes… I’m learning very much. It’s a fascinating, well-researched book. Most of his sources are direct source materials–the words that Christopher Columbus, the King, or other historical figures wrote in their account of things. …and still learning more… What a great book! ---
**Author:** ![amelioration](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e9c0ed/32.png) [@amelioration](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amelioration)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2007, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fess-up-a-recent-battle-against-your-own-ignorance/389083/3 "2007-01-23T16:14:46Z")
**Olivesmarch4th** , I’ve heard of that book before, and it sounds fascinating. Will have to search for a copy of that around somewhere! I would’ve loved to read a book for high school history that wasn’t slanted towards Europeanization – it’s amazing how ignorant that great percentage of people are (including me) that only had glossed-over, biased info to go on. For example, the textbooks I had never even _mentioned_ the Japanese-American internment camps in the U.S. during WWII! As for battles against my own ignorance, they occur pretty much every time I have a discussion with one of my good friends and my bf. They’re both very intellectual sorts, and can get quite engrossed in their discussions about politics or sci-fi sometimes. I’ve been trying to observe them and learn from them, but unfortunately that can be somewhat hard to do with only a rapid-fire stream of debate to listen to and no base of reference to draw on. ---
**Author:** ![Sean\_Factotum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/50afbb/32.png) [@Sean\_Factotum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sean_Factotum)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2007, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fess-up-a-recent-battle-against-your-own-ignorance/389083/4 "2007-01-23T16:23:59Z")
It’s a continuing battle for this one. The definition of “pithy”. I will look it up, understand it, come up with a few good examples. But them I’ll see or hear the word a couple of days later, and guess what - I gotta look it up all over again. That word’s definition will not stay in my head. ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2007, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fess-up-a-recent-battle-against-your-own-ignorance/389083/5 "2007-01-23T18:24:41Z")
[QUOTE=olivesmarch4th] Well, for me, it’s a book I’m reading… _Lies My Teacher Told Me_ by James Loewen–what is simultaneously an American History book and a slam on the way history is taught in schools. [/quote] I _love_ that book. I wish I’d read it earlier- I might have realized that American history isn’t inherently boring and jingoistic, and taken a class in it in college. > [@](#): > > I learned that all those “Great Feats in World Navigational History” we learned about were really "Great Feats in _European_ Navigational History – people from other cultures had achieved these things centuries before Europeans did. Read about the Polynesians sometime- their navigational feats will blow your mind, and pretty much all happened long before the European Age of Exploration. James Michener’s _Hawaii_ has a decent fictionalized account of the first voyage from Tahiti to Hawaii. > [@](#): > > I learned that European colonists did not enslave people because they were racist–they became racist because they enslaved people–and furthermore, our particular version of slavery was one of the most incomprehensibly brutal versions in world history, so “other people had slaves too” is a terrible excuse. If you like his discussion of the nadir of race relations in the US (late 19th-early 20th century), you’ll also like James Loewen’s other book, _Lies Across America_. > [@](#): > > I learned that due to the long, exhaustive trek across Siberia in order to get to North America, the cold had basically killed off most germs and indigenous folks were virtually disease–and immunity–free. Their sparse population also prevented the spread of diseases. When they met up with the Europeans thousands of years later, they were sitting ducks for smallpox. If you’re interested in learning more about that, I highly recommend _Guns, Germs, and Steel_ by Jared Diamond. ---
**Author:** ![ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9bcb4/32.png) [@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2007, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fess-up-a-recent-battle-against-your-own-ignorance/389083/6 "2007-01-23T21:15:54Z")
Both _Lies My Teacher Told Me_ and _Guns, Germs, and Steel_ are also on my “to-read” list, joined there by both of Barak Obama’s books. But I have the hardest time getting sufficiently absorbed into reading non-fiction books, even the stuff that I find compelling. I enjoy short bursts like magazine articles (online and otherwise) and blogs, but I don’t have much reading longevity unless there is some sort of an escapist fiction carrot in front of my nose. When I try, I end up losing focus and going into “textbook reading mode” where part of my brain reads, but I have absolutely no retention of what I just read when I get to the bottom of the paragraph or page. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2007, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fess-up-a-recent-battle-against-your-own-ignorance/389083/7 "2007-01-23T21:28:41Z")
> [@](#): > > Well, for me, it’s a book I’m reading… Lies My Teacher Told Me by James Loewen–what is simultaneously an American History book and a slam on the way history is taught in schools. I was a great candidate to do this reading because I went to a terrible school and my high school history text book was ranked one of the “10 Worst” by reader’s digest. If you liked that, read Loewen’s other ook, **Lies Across America** , about selective ghistory reflected in historical markers, monuments, and museums. You’d probably also appreciate Richard Shenkman’s books **Legends, Lies, and Cherished Myths of American History** , **I Love Paul Revere, Whether he Rode or Not** , and **Legends, Lies, and Cherished Myths of World History**. Shenkman hasn’t the axe to grind that Loewen does – his books are sorta like Jearl T. Walker’s **Flying Circus of Physics** , giving you tantalizing bits abvout things you probably didn’t know about history (Fulton’s steamship was _not_ called “The Clermont”) and telling you where to go for more information. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2007, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fess-up-a-recent-battle-against-your-own-ignorance/389083/8 "2007-01-23T21:57:40Z")
[QUOTE=olivesmarch4th] the cold had basically killed off most germs [/QUOTE] This sounds a bit of a stretch to me. There are plenty of diseases in Tibet, for example. Can you elaborate? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2007, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fess-up-a-recent-battle-against-your-own-ignorance/389083/9 "2007-01-23T22:40:11Z")
Recently, during a drunken conversation with a stranger at a sushi bar, I learned that I’ve been misusing the word “catharsis” all my life. ---
**Author:** ![ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9bcb4/32.png) [@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2007, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fess-up-a-recent-battle-against-your-own-ignorance/389083/10 "2007-01-23T22:47:32Z")
[QUOTE=Miller] Recently, during a drunken conversation with a stranger at a sushi bar, I learned that I’ve been misusing the word “catharsis” all my life. [/QUOTE] If either of you could pronounce the word, you may not have been as think as you drunk you were. ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2007, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fess-up-a-recent-battle-against-your-own-ignorance/389083/11 "2007-01-23T23:05:41Z")
It’s not recent, but when I discovered snopes I realized that many of the “truths” I believed about college were BS. I heard them all: prof leaving a hat on the desk, compulsory swimming test because a donor’s kid drowned, roommate dying gets you all As, anonymous kid throws test book into stack, etc. I thought they were true and unique to my school. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Gala\_Matrix\_Fire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4da419/32.png) [@Gala\_Matrix\_Fire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gala_Matrix_Fire)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2007, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fess-up-a-recent-battle-against-your-own-ignorance/389083/12 "2007-01-23T23:54:56Z")
If you’re interested in reading about the American continents before the arrival of the Europeans, you may enjoy 1491 by Charles C. Mann. As for me, I recently learned that Bundt as in bundt pan is a trademark. You won’t find the word in the Merriam Webster dictionary. ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2007, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fess-up-a-recent-battle-against-your-own-ignorance/389083/13 "2007-01-24T00:26:22Z")
[QUOTE=ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies] I have the hardest time getting sufficiently absorbed into reading non-fiction books, even the stuff that I find compelling. I enjoy short bursts like magazine articles (online and otherwise) and blogs, but I don’t have much reading longevity unless there is some sort of an escapist fiction carrot in front of my nose. When I try, I end up losing focus and going into “textbook reading mode” where part of my brain reads, but I have absolutely no retention of what I just read when I get to the bottom of the paragraph or page. [/QUOTE] I like James Michener’s big thick books usually titled after a country, state, or place. They’re fiction, and have some pretty compelling stories in them, but you end up learning some of the history of the place you’re reading about. _Hawaii_ has a good fictionalized account (with one major mistake that made me yell “Rrrrrh!”) of the initial voyage from Tahiti (well, near Tahiti) to Hawaii. Edward Rutherfurd has written some of the same type of books about England and Russia. These books are all paperbacks, so you can get them fairly cheap (especially if you have access to a good used bookstore). Find one about an area that you’re interested in learning more about the history of, and see how you like it. ---
**Author:** ![teela\_brown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d9b06d/32.png) [@teela\_brown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/teela_brown)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2007, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fess-up-a-recent-battle-against-your-own-ignorance/389083/14 "2007-01-24T00:30:33Z")
I just learned a few minutes ago that daylight savings time has been moved to sometime in March 2007 this year. I was completely ignorant of this fact. Good thing I’ve been enlightened or I would have been showing up for work at the wrong time. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2007, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fess-up-a-recent-battle-against-your-own-ignorance/389083/15 "2007-01-24T01:45:26Z")
> [@](#): > > This sounds a bit of a stretch to me. There are plenty of diseases in Tibet, for example. Can you elaborate? Sure. Sorry for the overgeneralization. Let me pull out the actual text of the book: > [@](#): > > The warmer parts of Europe, Asia, and Africa have historically been the breeding ground for most of mankind’s illnesses. Humans evolved in tropical regions; tropical diseases evolved alongside them. People moved to cooler climates only with the aid of cultural inventions–clothing, shelter, and fire–that helped maintain warm temperatures around their bodies. Microbes that live outside their human hosts during part of their life cycle had trouble coping with northern Europe and Asia. When humans migrated to the Americas across the newly drained Bering Strait, if the archaeological consensus is correct, the changes in climate and physical circumstance threatened even those hardy parasites that had survived the earlier slow migration northward from Africa. These first immigrants entered the Americas through a frigid decontamination chamber. The first settlers in the Western Hemisphere thus probably arrived in a healthier condition than most people on earth than enjoyed before or since. Many of the diseases that had long shadowed them simply could not survive the journey. from p. 78 of “Lies My Teacher Told Me.” The key thing, from what I’m getting from this quote, is that one of the crucial reasons germs could not survive the trek is that it was a relatively rapid climate change compared to the spread of people to other parts of the world. Thus people in Tibet, by the time they got there, brought their germs with them–but the trek across Siberia happened far too quickly for the germs to adapt. Does that make more sense? ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2007, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fess-up-a-recent-battle-against-your-own-ignorance/389083/16 "2007-01-24T02:48:58Z")
[QUOTE=olivesmarch4th] Sure. Sorry for the overgeneralization. Let me pull out the actual text of the book: from p. 78 of “Lies My Teacher Told Me.” The key thing, from what I’m getting from this quote, is that one of the crucial reasons germs could not survive the trek is that it was a relatively rapid climate change compared to the spread of people to other parts of the world. Thus people in Tibet, by the time they got there, brought their germs with them–but the trek across Siberia happened far too quickly for the germs to adapt. Does that make more sense? [/QUOTE] Sounds fishy to me. Don’t bacteria have a new generation every 20 minutes or something? Is he claiming the trek across Siberia, the Bering Strait, Alaska, and Canada took 20 minutes? How would an internal parasite or germ be affected by external cold? Wouldn’t it generally be 98.6 degrees in each host? If he’s talking epidemic infections (all the ones we contract and recover from, or die – smallpox, chickenpox, mumps, mealses, influenze, etc), he’s pretty much wrong. Those didn’t co-evolve with humans in tropical conditions. They didn’t co-evolve with humans _at all._ Human populations were too small to support epidemic diseases, which require a population large and dense enough that the germs can keep migrating to uninfected hosts. Only herd animals lived in such populations. If Loewen is trying to figure out why the germs weren’t present in humans in the Americas, tell him to figure out where the herd animals were in close contact with man. Or better yet, send him a copy of _Guns, Germs, and Steel._ Sailboat ---
**Author:** ![ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9bcb4/32.png) [@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2007, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fess-up-a-recent-battle-against-your-own-ignorance/389083/17 "2007-01-24T02:52:25Z")
[QUOTE=Anne Neville] I like James Michener’s big thick books usually titled after a country, state, or place. They’re fiction, and have some pretty compelling stories in them, but you end up learning some of the history of the place you’re reading about. _Hawaii_ has a good fictionalized account (with one major mistake that made me yell “Rrrrrh!”) of the initial voyage from Tahiti (well, near Tahiti) to Hawaii. Edward Rutherfurd has written some of the same type of books about England and Russia. These books are all paperbacks, so you can get them fairly cheap (especially if you have access to a good used bookstore). Find one about an area that you’re interested in learning more about the history of, and see how you like it. [/QUOTE] I know there are a few copies of Michener’s books knocking around my Mom’s bookshelves. _Hawaii_ for sure. I thought of another erradicated ignorance nugget. We have a female orange tabby, [Mango](http://kittenwar.com/kittens/93722/), and I’ve always just regurgitated unresearched numbers as to how rare it is for orange tabby’s to be female (1 in 10 is the number that I’ve heard the most). But after some Googling the other night, it turns out (at least according to [Purina](http://www.catchow.com/catcarecenter_3_adult_1.aspx?combinedID=21016) )that the genetic chances are closer to 1 in 3. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2007, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fess-up-a-recent-battle-against-your-own-ignorance/389083/18 "2007-01-24T05:34:52Z")
> [@](#): > > How would an internal parasite or germ be affected by external cold? I guess I thought it was clear from his quote he was talking about those that lived outside the host. I really don’t know enough about the biology of communicable diseases to answer any of your questions. My knowledge of diseases is limited to high school biology and the science parts of _And the Band Played On._ > [@](#): > > Human populations were too small to support epidemic diseases, which require a population large and dense enough that the germs can keep migrating to uninfected hosts. Only herd animals lived in such populations. Actually he kind of addresses the idea of population in the book, but specifically in regards to the contrast between densely populated Europeans and less densely populated indigenous Americans. The paragraph I cited earlier is only one factor discussed as a possible contributor to the smallpox epidemics that ravaged indigenous populations. > [@](#): > > Or better yet, send him a copy of Guns, Germs, and Steel. I started reading that book… I’ll finish it, after I finish _Lies_ and probably _A People’s History of the United States._ I would have to say I would trust Jared Diamond’s assessment of this issue over Loewen’s… though I would hesitate to say it discredits the rest of Loewen’s work. He has some amazingly powerful things to say in “Lies My Teacher Told Me.” You sound like you have quite a bit of knowledge on the subject. Feel free to elaborate at any time.