# Fetal Murder Charges **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 21, 2003, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fetal-murder-charges/169965 "2003-04-21T03:34:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2003, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fetal-murder-charges/169965/41 "2003-04-22T23:36:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JThunder \* > \*\*The fetus is part of the mother’s body? So the mother actually has two sets of chromosomes? She has two hearts? Two brains? Four hands and four feet? Two sets of kidneys? Heck, if the fetus is male, then she has a penis as well? \*\* Yes, while she’s pregnant. When the fetus is detached from her body, it becomes a baby and the second set of organs belongs to it. Wasn’t that easy? > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Monty_ > **Mr2001: The mother may be able to “grow another” baby; however, there is no way at all for her to grow the same baby again.** True, although it’s not like she has gotten to know the fetus. She’s felt it move around a little bit and maybe seen an ultrasound picture, but you can’t exactly recognize a face on the ultrasound. Fetuses is fetuses. ---
**Author:** ![Yeticus\_Rex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/a698b9/32.png) [@Yeticus\_Rex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yeticus_Rex)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2003, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fetal-murder-charges/169965/42 "2003-04-23T02:09:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Monty \* > \*\*Yeticus Rex: Lockyear isn’t the prosecution. He’s not involved in the case AFACT. The prosecution is the DA of Stanislaw County. IIRC, Brazelton’s the DA of said county and Lockyear’s the AG of California. \*\* You’re right, what I meant to say was that Atty. Gen Lockyer had said that the DNA match made the case a “slam dunk”… [Lockyer: Peterson case a “Slam Dunk”](http://www.kron4.com/Global/story.asp?S=1240411) ---
**Author:** ![Yeticus\_Rex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/a698b9/32.png) [@Yeticus\_Rex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yeticus_Rex)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2003, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fetal-murder-charges/169965/43 "2003-04-23T02:15:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mr2001 \* > \*\*True, although it’s not like she has gotten to know the fetus. She’s felt it move around a little bit and maybe seen an ultrasound picture, but you can’t exactly recognize a face on the ultrasound. Fetuses is fetuses. \*\* My wife would say otherwise; bearing 3 sons, 4 miscarriages, and a tubal pregnancy that had to be aborted to save her life. Some of them did have faces…and names. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2003, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fetal-murder-charges/169965/44 "2003-04-23T02:45:39Z")
> [@](#): > > 4 miscarriages, and a tubal pregnancy that had to be aborted to save her life. Some of them did have faces…and names. Did you have a funeral for every miscarriage? ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2003, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fetal-murder-charges/169965/45 "2003-04-23T03:45:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Yeticus Rex \* > **My wife would say otherwise; bearing 3 sons, 4 miscarriages, and a tubal pregnancy that had to be aborted to save her life. Some of them did have faces** Of course they **had** faces. Question is, could she tell the faces apart from each other? If you could somehow swap the fetus for a different one without her noticing, would she know the difference? A fetus is like a Christmas gift wrapped up in a box. You don’t know what’s inside until you open it. You can guess, you can say “I hope it’s a boat”, you can start calling it “Sea Breeze” and draw up plans to build a marina, but you still don’t really know what it’s going to be. If the Grinch steals it one night and Santa brings you an identical box the next day, you’ve simply replaced the old mystery with a new one. > [@](#): > > **…and names.** My friend has a name for his car, but a silver Elantra is a silver Elantra. He could give the same name to another car and it wouldn’t complain. ---
**Author:** ![Zenster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/cdc98d/32.png) [@Zenster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zenster)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2003, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fetal-murder-charges/169965/46 "2003-04-23T05:06:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Blalron \* > \*\*Did you have a funeral for every miscarriage? \*\* Without putting too fine a point on it, that’s pretty d@mned rude. **Yeticus** and I might not agree on many things, but his willingness to be so forthright was ill met by such snide comment. Have you _ever_ been through abortion or miscarriage? Speak up or pipe down. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2003, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fetal-murder-charges/169965/47 "2003-04-23T12:50:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JThunder \* > \*\* > That’s because many abortionists are unwilling to perform abortions after 22 weeks. In other words, they are uncommon, but they are still available, and they are most certainly allowed by law. > > Besides, I don’t think any of the posters here said – or even remotely implied – that such abortions are “casually easy” to procure. Why should they? Such details are irrelevant to the question of fetal rights _per se_. It’s not “casually easy” to murder a stay-at-home mother of six, yet nobody dispute the fact that such actions are immoral, illegal and unspeakably reprehensible. \*\* In conceding that late-term abortions are rare and generally only done in cases where the mother’s health is in jeopardy, you’re also conceding the moral high ground. Basically, what you’re saying is, "When it comes down to a choice between a nice, shiny new baby and its mother, the rule should always be, “Fuck you, mom! You’re just trash, we want the baby!” Seems to me this is EXACTLY the kind of decision that is best made between the mother and her doctor. ---
**Author:** ![beagledave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6de8d8/32.png) [@beagledave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beagledave)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2003, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fetal-murder-charges/169965/48 "2003-04-23T13:32:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Evil Captor \* > \*\*In conceding that late-term abortions are rare and generally only done in cases where the mother’s health is in jeopardy, you’re also conceding the moral high ground. \*\* Help me out here. Where did JThunder **concede** that late-term abortions are “generally only done in cases where the mothers health is in jeopardy”? > [@](#): > > \*\* > Basically, what you’re saying is, "When it comes down to a choice between a nice, shiny new baby and its mother, the rule should always be, “Fuck you, mom! You’re just trash, we want the baby!” > \*\* Nice strawman dude. ---
**Author:** ![Yeticus\_Rex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/a698b9/32.png) [@Yeticus\_Rex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yeticus_Rex)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2003, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fetal-murder-charges/169965/49 "2003-04-23T22:51:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Blalron \* > \*\*Did you have a funeral for every miscarriage? \*\* **Blalron** , I know we’ve locked horns before on other threads and I know it never got personal until now, but I will answer your question. Although we did not have funerals (i.e.- in the church) we had called upon a priest when we knew that a miscarriage was inevitable and for the tubal pregnancy. Another miscarriage caught my wife totally off-guard and nothing could have been done (that is all the details you’re going to get). We have had grieving sessions and prayers by the priest who also blessed the fetus; call it a funeral (or not) if you feel like it… Thanks for the support **Zenster** … [major hijack] I hate to keep bringing up my personal life (and my wife’s) here, but I keep doing so because I think that many posters here do not have an inkling of real life experience with fetal distress, miscarriages, abortions and such; I’ve seen it and witnessed it, not just on paper/print/pictures, but in real life. I tell you that from a personal perspective, but many of you write it off as if it’s no big deal, “it’s not a person”, “fetuses are fetuses”, “non-individual”, etc…I am sorry, but you’re in obvious denial of a real and bonafide life at stake here, not something that’s trivial or “a little problem”. I don’t want anyone here to have to go through what my wife had to go through, but I know people will have some tough decisions to make in their life and I hope that they can get some perspective from someone who had to witness it. Has anyone else witnessed first hand or would anybody like to tell us your (your wife’s) miscarriage/abortion story? How did you feel about it when you made your decision, when the surgery was performed, and after the abortion/miscarriage? Your opinions will probably change if it does happen…It did for me. [/major hijack] ---
**Author:** ![candida](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f14d63/32.png) [@candida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/candida)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2003, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fetal-murder-charges/169965/50 "2003-04-23T23:07:16Z")
[sarcasm hijack]]Nothing like a serious ‘hawking your experience (as an excuse to hit everybody over the head with a fetus incident) around a board looking for somebody to tell you what to do with it’ interrupt.[/sarcasm hijack] ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2003, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fetal-murder-charges/169965/51 "2003-04-23T23:10:35Z")
Whatever I can say about your beliefs, at least they are consistant. ---
**Author:** ![Yeticus\_Rex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/a698b9/32.png) [@Yeticus\_Rex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yeticus_Rex)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2003, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fetal-murder-charges/169965/52 "2003-04-23T23:16:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mr2001 \* > **Of course they had faces. Question is, could she tell the faces apart from each other? If you could somehow swap the fetus for a different one without her noticing, would she know the difference?** Trivialization #1… Talk to those blue aliens, they have been quite busy of late, but maybe they can pull off that inane request (without my wife noticing). And no, my wife isn’t Agent Skully! \*\* > [@](#): > > A fetus is like a Christmas gift wrapped up in a box. You don’t know what’s inside until you open it. You can guess, you can say “I hope it’s a boat”, you can start calling it “Sea Breeze” and draw up plans to build a marina, but you still don’t really know what it’s going to be. If the Grinch steals it one night and Santa brings you an identical box the next day, you’ve simply replaced the old mystery with a new one.\*\* Trivialization #2… I wouldn’t call it “Sea Breeze”, I would instead call it “Straw Man”. I guess the Grinch would be viewed as an abortion provider with too much time on his hands, who decided to switch fetuses just have a little fun, huh? \*\* > [@](#): > > My friend has a name for his car, but a silver Elantra is a silver Elantra. He could give the same name to another car and it wouldn’t complain. \*\* Trivialization #3… I would worry quite a bit **IF** it did… I think you are suffering from some crazy notion that a woman is like a gumball machine and that the gumballs are all identical in shape, size, color, taste, etc. and if one falls on the floor and rolls into a grate and is lost, then that’s ok, just put another quarter in and get another one. You are so, so, so far from the truth. ---
**Author:** ![Yeticus\_Rex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/a698b9/32.png) [@Yeticus\_Rex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yeticus_Rex)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2003, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fetal-murder-charges/169965/53 "2003-04-23T23:22:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by candida \* > \*\*[sarcasm hijack]]Nothing like a serious ‘hawking your experience (as an excuse to hit everybody over the head with a fetus incident) around a board looking for somebody to tell you what to do with it’ interrupt.[/sarcasm hijack] \*\* And it wouldn’t be a party without you, Candida… Nice dent on your head, BTW…:rolleyes: Got anything new to bring into the topic? ---
**Author:** ![candida](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f14d63/32.png) [@candida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/candida)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2003, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fetal-murder-charges/169965/54 "2003-04-23T23:25:30Z")
Sorry I don’t have your unique ability to link to hilarious boards, Yeticus, nor a desire to talk about my wanted and successful pregnancies as exemplars of choice. ---
**Author:** ![Yeticus\_Rex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/a698b9/32.png) [@Yeticus\_Rex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yeticus_Rex)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2003, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fetal-murder-charges/169965/55 "2003-04-23T23:44:34Z")
One-liners with no research are definitely your specialty… Can I buy you a beer or soda?😃 ---
**Author:** ![candida](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f14d63/32.png) [@candida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/candida)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2003, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fetal-murder-charges/169965/56 "2003-04-23T23:49:03Z")
No research? How many ‘pro-choicers bite the heads off kittens’/‘Rev JC Flannel tells of the evils of pro-choice kitten-juggling’ links of yours does one have to follow to count as research, Yeticus? Drinks? Only if they’re kosher. ---
**Author:** ![Zenster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/cdc98d/32.png) [@Zenster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zenster)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2003, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fetal-murder-charges/169965/57 "2003-04-24T01:10:52Z")
Shall we get back on topic, or is that too much to ask? ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2003, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fetal-murder-charges/169965/58 "2003-04-24T02:17:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Yeticus Rex \* > \*\*I think you are suffering from some crazy notion that a woman is like a gumball machine and that the gumballs are all identical in shape, size, color, taste, etc. and if one falls on the floor and rolls into a grate and is lost, then that’s ok, just put another quarter in and get another one. You are so, so, so far from the truth. \*\* A woman is like a gumball machine? No, a woman is a human being. I don’t define people by their reproductive actions. The comparison between fetuses and gumballs isn’t too bad, though. They’re each unique, but you don’t know any of their unique qualities until they stop being fetuses and start being babies, so one fetus is essentially indistinguishable from another. If something happens to a fetus, all you’ve really lost is time and effort. “There’s more where that came from” is a blunt, but accurate description (barring certain medical conditions). But, since you’re apparently judge of “the truth” and how far I am from it, maybe you can enlighten me. ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2003, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fetal-murder-charges/169965/59 "2003-04-24T02:40:39Z")
I missed this from the last page… > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Yeticus Rex_ > **I tell you that from a personal perspective, but many of you write it off as if it’s no big deal, “it’s not a person”, “fetuses are fetuses”, “non-individual”, etc…I am sorry, but you’re in obvious denial of a real and bonafide life at stake here, not something that’s trivial or “a little problem”. > […] > Has anyone else witnessed first hand or would anybody like to tell us your (your wife’s) miscarriage/abortion story? How did you feel about it when you made your decision, when the surgery was performed, and after the abortion/miscarriage? Your opinions will probably change if it does happen…It did for me.** As a matter of fact, I have been in that position… my (now ex-)girlfriend had an abortion. I was terrified when she said she was pregnant, and felt nothing but relief when she told me her decision. She was a little scared to go into surgery, but she never expressed any hesitation or regret, before or after the procedure. Obviously, neither of us wanted to be parents. I imagine we would’ve been upset if we had. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fetal-murder-charges/169965.md?page=2)