# Fetus cut from mother: Kidnapping or Theft? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 18, 2004, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fetus-cut-from-mother-kidnapping-or-theft/280452 "2004-12-18T00:52:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![tiny\_ham](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a183cd/32.png) [@tiny\_ham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tiny_ham)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2004, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fetus-cut-from-mother-kidnapping-or-theft/280452/1 "2004-12-18T00:52:06Z")
[This story today on cnn](http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/12/17/missouri.fetus/index.html) had me wondering about various abortion issues, recalling an argument I’m sure we had here regarding whether Scott Peterson should have been charged with two murders, given the belief that a fetus is not deserving of human rights. So what happens when, in essence, a woman is given a forced abortion, like this case? Do pro-choice folks (of which I am one) believe this should have been an ‘amber alert’ kidnapping situation? Or, given that it was still a fetus in the womb, and not ‘human’ according to many scientists and folks, should it have been theft? Or assault? Or something else entirely. Fortunately, in this case, the baby was found alive. But what if it was found dead? Or died as a direct result of being cut from the womb, what should the punishment be? And for everyone, does this case relate at ALL to your abortion beliefs? For my part, I am pro-choice, but I think this WAS a kidnapping, although that seems an inaccurate term. It seemd like a “forced abortion”, which i think everyone can agree is wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Myakot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/49beb7/32.png) [@Myakot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Myakot)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2004, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fetus-cut-from-mother-kidnapping-or-theft/280452/2 "2004-12-18T00:57:08Z")
IANAL… but Assault, first degree? O\_o ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2004, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fetus-cut-from-mother-kidnapping-or-theft/280452/3 "2004-12-18T00:59:11Z")
Certainly the crimes commited _include_ kidnapping. I guess the point for each crime is who was the victim, the mother or child? With a safe outcome for the baby, I can’t see any other crime was committed. Obviously, if the baby died or was harmed, it’d be murder/manslaughter/GBH etc. What crimes were committed against the mother are hard to discern, but I think a murder charge would suffice. And no, it doesn’t seem to me to be related to the familiar ‘foetus is/is not a human’ argument. I don’t know of many pro-choice people who advocate abortion after 8 months. ---
**Author:** ![Kel\_Varnsen\_Latex\_Division](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/aeb1de/32.png) [@Kel\_Varnsen\_Latex\_Division](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kel_Varnsen_Latex_Division)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2004, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fetus-cut-from-mother-kidnapping-or-theft/280452/4 "2004-12-18T01:39:06Z")
Wouldn’t even the strongest pro-choice person view the baby as a human being once it was out of the womb and the cord cut? I mean at that point what else could it be? ---
**Author:** ![tiny\_ham](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a183cd/32.png) [@tiny\_ham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tiny_ham)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2004, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fetus-cut-from-mother-kidnapping-or-theft/280452/5 "2004-12-18T01:56:26Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > And no, it doesn’t seem to me to be related to the familiar ‘foetus is/is not a human’ argument. I don’t know of many pro-choice people who advocate abortion after 8 months. What about partial birth abortions? No matter how rare, aren’t they done in the third trimester? ---
**Author:** ![tiny\_ham](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a183cd/32.png) [@tiny\_ham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tiny_ham)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2004, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fetus-cut-from-mother-kidnapping-or-theft/280452/6 "2004-12-18T01:58:08Z")
> [@Kel Varnsen - Latex Division](#): > > Wouldn’t even the strongest pro-choice person view the baby as a human being once it was out of the womb and the cord cut? I mean at that point what else could it be? Well, the point is that we didn’t know if the baby was alive or not. The fetus was missing and an Amber Alert was issued. I’m asking if this is appropriate for a missing fetus. ---
**Author:** ![Kel\_Varnsen\_Latex\_Division](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/aeb1de/32.png) [@Kel\_Varnsen\_Latex\_Division](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kel_Varnsen_Latex_Division)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2004, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fetus-cut-from-mother-kidnapping-or-theft/280452/7 "2004-12-18T02:09:58Z")
> [@jarbabyj](#): > > Well, the point is that we didn’t know if the baby was alive or not. The fetus was missing and an Amber Alert was issued. I’m asking if this is appropriate for a missing fetus. At the time it was reasonable to believe it was alive. The only reason to take it if it was dead was as a weird trophy. If it was alive after being taken it was a human being. An amber alert was appropriate. ---
**Author:** ![Abbie\_Carmichael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/49beb7/32.png) [@Abbie\_Carmichael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Abbie_Carmichael)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2004, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fetus-cut-from-mother-kidnapping-or-theft/280452/8 "2004-12-18T02:20:33Z")
**Well, the point is that we didn’t know if the baby was alive or not. The fetus was missing and an Amber Alert was issued. I’m asking if this is appropriate for a missing fetus.** Yes. We’ve got a dead woman whose baby has been cut from her womb. I think we should assume that the baby is missing for a reason and assume she’s alive. I’m just glad that the bastards were stupid enough to take the baby across a state line. Can we say “capital crime” boys and girls? **Fortunately, in this case, the baby was found alive. But what if it was found dead? Or died as a direct result of being cut from the womb, what should the punishment be?** Laci and Connor’s Law already covers this. If the law imposes liability on someone who kills an unborn baby while in utero, I can’t see why the penalty would be any less for someone who causes the baby’s death by cutting it out of the womb. As far as the crime in general, cutting a baby out of her mother’s womb, I think it should be a capital offense regardless of what state you’re in. We can’t have mandatory death sentencing, but we can at least make sure to always have it on the table when something like this happens. ---
**Author:** ![Kel\_Varnsen\_Latex\_Division](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/aeb1de/32.png) [@Kel\_Varnsen\_Latex\_Division](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kel_Varnsen_Latex_Division)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2004, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fetus-cut-from-mother-kidnapping-or-theft/280452/9 "2004-12-18T02:28:56Z")
> [@](#): > > Laci and Connor’s Law already covers this. If the law imposes liability on someone who kills an unborn baby while in utero, I can’t see why the penalty would be any less for someone who causes the baby’s death by cutting it out of the womb. What makes you think Connor’s law applies to the jurisdiction where this crime occurred? ---
**Author:** ![davenportavenger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f8ce5/32.png) [@davenportavenger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davenportavenger)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2004, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fetus-cut-from-mother-kidnapping-or-theft/280452/10 "2004-12-18T02:30:10Z")
> [@jarbabyj](#): > > What about partial birth abortions? No matter how rare, aren’t they done in the third trimester? Yes, but not after eight months. The vast majority of doctors would not perform an abortion at that advanced stage. Most “partial birth”/late term abortions are performed early in the sixth month, at the borderline of second and third trimester, before the fetus is viable (a baby doesn’t have a better than even chance of surviving unless it’s born after the twenty-third week, [cite](http://members.aol.com/dderleth/extreme.html)). A lot of the skewed statistics about late term abortion are the result of a handful of renegade doctors who specialize in elective abortions performed in the last weeks of pregnancy, such as Dr. George Tiller of Kansas, a specialist in late-term abortions who gets many out-of-state patients. As for this case, I’d say that it would be a manslaughter charge if the fetus/baby had died, and a kidnapping case if it lived. Eight months plus is far enough advanced to consider the fetus a human being. It’s definitely murder as far as the mother is concerned, since the killer didn’t just cut the fetus out, she strangled the woman. ---
**Author:** ![Kel\_Varnsen\_Latex\_Division](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/aeb1de/32.png) [@Kel\_Varnsen\_Latex\_Division](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kel_Varnsen_Latex_Division)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2004, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fetus-cut-from-mother-kidnapping-or-theft/280452/11 "2004-12-18T02:30:57Z")
> [@Abbie Carmichael](#): > > \*\*As far as the crime in general, cutting a baby out of her mother’s womb, I think it should be a capital offense regardless of what state you’re in. We can’t have mandatory death sentencing, but we can at least make sure to always have it on the table when something like this happens. What if no dies? What if the woman requests the fetus be removed? Do you still want it to be a capital crime? ---
**Author:** ![Kel\_Varnsen\_Latex\_Division](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/aeb1de/32.png) [@Kel\_Varnsen\_Latex\_Division](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kel_Varnsen_Latex_Division)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2004, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fetus-cut-from-mother-kidnapping-or-theft/280452/12 "2004-12-18T02:34:10Z")
> [@continuity eror](#): > > As for this case, I’d say that it would be a manslaughter charge if the fetus/baby had died, and a kidnapping case if it lived. If the baby had died it would be murder. Either the killer would have intended to kill the baby or it would have been felony murder with kidnapping being the underlying felony. ---
**Author:** ![Abbie\_Carmichael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/49beb7/32.png) [@Abbie\_Carmichael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Abbie_Carmichael)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2004, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fetus-cut-from-mother-kidnapping-or-theft/280452/13 "2004-12-18T02:46:40Z")
> [@Kel Varnsen - Latex Division](#): > > What makes you think Connor’s law applies to the jurisdiction where this crime occurred? Last I checked the US Code covers the whole country. ---
**Author:** ![Kel\_Varnsen\_Latex\_Division](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/aeb1de/32.png) [@Kel\_Varnsen\_Latex\_Division](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kel_Varnsen_Latex_Division)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2004, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fetus-cut-from-mother-kidnapping-or-theft/280452/14 "2004-12-18T03:11:30Z")
> [@Abbie Carmichael](#): > > Last I checked the US Code covers the whole country. Yeah,I worded that wrong. What I meant was what gives the federal government jurisdiction in this case? The Unborn Victims of Violence Act requires the killing to be done during another federal crime. Also the Unborn Victims of Violence Act does not allow for the death penalty. ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2004, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fetus-cut-from-mother-kidnapping-or-theft/280452/15 "2004-12-18T03:25:25Z")
For my part, if the woman intended to follow through with the pregnancy, then it was murder/kidnapping/whatever; if not, then whatever seems appropriate. If the woman intended to carry the child to term, then IMO we should consider that unborn a person in the sense that taking it is kidnapping and destroying it is murder. If the woman did not intend to, then the unborn is irrelevant. Pretend an organ was stolen, I don’t know. Wicked gross. ---
**Author:** ![Abbie\_Carmichael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/49beb7/32.png) [@Abbie\_Carmichael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Abbie_Carmichael)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2004, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fetus-cut-from-mother-kidnapping-or-theft/280452/16 "2004-12-18T03:31:12Z")
> [@Kel Varnsen - Latex Division](#): > > Yeah,I worded that wrong. What I meant was what gives the federal government jurisdiction in this case? Kidnapping is a federal crime. The baby was taken across state lines. > [@Kel](#): > > The Unborn Victims of Violence Act requires the killing to be done during another federal crime. The UVVA doesn’t mention anything about the baby’s death having to occur during another federal crime. Beating up a pregnant woman is probably not a federal crime, but if the baby dies as a result of it, you’re nailed according to the UVVA. We were talking about theoretically what would happen had the baby in this situation died. I said that considering someone could be punished under UVVA for killing an unborn child in the womb, it would hold that causing the death of a baby by cutting her out of the womb would bring a similar punishment. > [@](#): > > Also the Unborn Victims of Violence Act does not allow for the death penalty. Who said it did? As far as the DP goes, Missouri has it (and actually USES it), where the mother’s murder occurred. ---
**Author:** ![tiny\_ham](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a183cd/32.png) [@tiny\_ham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tiny_ham)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2004, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fetus-cut-from-mother-kidnapping-or-theft/280452/17 "2004-12-18T14:25:29Z")
> [@erislover](#): > > For my part, if the woman intended to follow through with the pregnancy, then it was murder/kidnapping/whatever; if not, then whatever seems appropriate. If the woman intended to carry the child to term, then IMO we should consider that unborn a person in the sense that taking it is kidnapping and destroying it is murder. So this raises a couple more questions. Does this lead to a road of a fetus being a human if it’s wanted and not human if its not? What if a husband wants the baby and the wife doesn’t? And at what point in its development is it considered a human? If a woman four weeks pregnant is murdered but really wanted the baby, is that double homicide? ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2004, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fetus-cut-from-mother-kidnapping-or-theft/280452/18 "2004-12-18T15:19:11Z")
Well, I pretty much feel that since mom has to carry the pregnancy to term, it doesn’t much matter what daddy wants. > [@](#): > > And at what point in its development is it considered a human? If a woman four weeks pregnant is murdered but really wanted the baby, is that double homicide? If she’s pregnant and knew it, that’s good enough for me. How soon does one start planning around a baby? Do you wait until it kicks before contemplating how you’ll come up with the cash, which room, etc? 🙂 Nah. But the second question… well, yeah, I think I wouldn’t argue against double homicide, but really it seems like it should be a combined charge of murder+manslaughter unless the criminal knew she was pregnant. ---
**Author:** ![Kel\_Varnsen\_Latex\_Division](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/aeb1de/32.png) [@Kel\_Varnsen\_Latex\_Division](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kel_Varnsen_Latex_Division)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2004, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fetus-cut-from-mother-kidnapping-or-theft/280452/19 "2004-12-18T17:01:06Z")
> [@](#): > > Kidnapping is a federal crime. The baby was taken across state lines. For it to be kidnapping the baby would have to be alive after it was taken out. If it was alive it was no longer a fetus but an actual human thus the UVVA does not apply. The UVVA can only apply if the fetus is killed (or seriously injured) before becoming a legal human being. If the fetus becomes a legal human being and then dies the charge would be some form of homicicde. > [@](#): > > The UVVA doesn’t mention anything about the baby’s death having to occur during another federal crime. Yes it does. From the UVVA: > [@](#): > > `(a)(1) Whoever engages in conduct that violates any of the provisions of law listed in subsection (b) > > cut to subsection (b) > > `(b) The provisions referred to in subsection (a) are the following: > > `(1) Sections 36, 37, 43, 111, 112, 113, 114, 115, 229, 242, 245, 247, 248, 351, 831, 844(d), (f), (h)(1), and (i), 924(j), 930, 1111, 1112, 1113, 1114, 1116, 1118, 1119, 1120, 1121, 1153(a), 1201(a), 1203, 1365(a), 1501, 1503, 1505, 1512, 1513, 1751, 1864, 1951, 1952 (a)(1)(B), (a)(2)(B), and (a)(3)(B), 1958, 1959, 1992, 2113, 2114, 2116, 2118, 2119, 2191, 2231, 2241(a), 2245, 2261, 2261A, 2280, 2281, 2332, 2332a, 2332b, 2340A, and 2441 of this title. `(2) Section 408(e) of the Controlled Substances Act of 1970 (21 U.S.C. 848(e)). > > `(3) Section 202 of the Atomic Energy Act of 1954 (42 U.S.C. 2283). ---
**Author:** ![Kel\_Varnsen\_Latex\_Division](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/aeb1de/32.png) [@Kel\_Varnsen\_Latex\_Division](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kel_Varnsen_Latex_Division)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2004, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fetus-cut-from-mother-kidnapping-or-theft/280452/20 "2004-12-18T17:02:53Z")
Here is a link to UVVA. > **[FindLaw Legal Blogs - FindLaw](https://www.findlaw.com/legalblogs/)** > > Get the latest legal news and information, and learn more about laws that impact your everyday life by visiting FindLaw Legal Blogs. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fetus-cut-from-mother-kidnapping-or-theft/280452.md?page=2)