# Fetus cut from mother: Kidnapping or Theft? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 18, 2004, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fetus-cut-from-mother-kidnapping-or-theft/280452 "2004-12-18T00:52:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Abbie\_Carmichael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/49beb7/32.png) [@Abbie\_Carmichael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Abbie_Carmichael)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2004, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fetus-cut-from-mother-kidnapping-or-theft/280452/21 "2004-12-18T18:51:46Z")
> [@Kel Varnsen - Latex Division](#): > > For it to be kidnapping the baby would have to be alive after it was taken out. If it was alive it was no longer a fetus but an actual human thus the UVVA does not apply. The UVVA can only apply if the fetus is killed (or seriously injured) before becoming a legal human being. If the fetus becomes a legal human being and then dies the charge would be some form of homicicde. Dammit, I never said the UVVA applies in this situation. I said that GIVEN THE UVVA, I would think that \*\*had this baby died \*\* as a result of being cut from her mother’s womb, the penalties would be similiar. ---
**Author:** ![Kel\_Varnsen\_Latex\_Division](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/aeb1de/32.png) [@Kel\_Varnsen\_Latex\_Division](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kel_Varnsen_Latex_Division)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2004, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fetus-cut-from-mother-kidnapping-or-theft/280452/22 "2004-12-18T19:22:14Z")
> [@](#): > > Dammit, I never said the UVVA applies in this situation. I said that GIVEN THE UVVA, I would think that had this baby died as a result of being cut from her mother’s womb, the penalties would be similiar. But if the UVVA doesn’t apply in this situation, why would the penalities necessarily be similiar? If the baby had died right when cut out, why would the UVVA come into play in any way? What would the underlying federal crime (required by the UVVA) be? The only way the UVVA come into play is if the feds have jurisdiction. Otherwise, it is covered by state law. The state can’t say given the UVVA we are going to punish you for this “crime” in a way different from our state statute. They has to use their own state statutes. What the UVVA says does not matter unless the death of the fetus comes as the result of specific federal crimes. ---
**Author:** ![Kel\_Varnsen\_Latex\_Division](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/aeb1de/32.png) [@Kel\_Varnsen\_Latex\_Division](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kel_Varnsen_Latex_Division)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2004, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fetus-cut-from-mother-kidnapping-or-theft/280452/23 "2004-12-18T19:28:51Z")
You seem to be saying that given the UVVA anytime a fetus is killed during a crime in the US the person who killed the fetus can be prosecuted because of the UVVA and the punishment would be similar. This is not true. If the killing of the fetus is not covered under federal jurisdiction by the UVVA and its provisions, the crime is a state matter and left to the states. The UVVA plays no part in these acts. The states can choose to say that killing the fetus is not a crime. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2004, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fetus-cut-from-mother-kidnapping-or-theft/280452/24 "2004-12-19T13:31:08Z")
If it helps, I recall from the last time I read Roe vs Wade, the decision of the judges in part was based on the old concept of the ‘quickening’. When you can feel the baby move. As far as charging the person who did it, it’s pretty simple. You load all the charges you can and find one that sticks. If there happened to be laws against stealing a car, as well as, say, bringing a truck to a chop shop, and someone stole a SUV and brought it to a chop shop, there is no reason not to charge the criminal with both. The only time you can not double up charges like this is in the case of double jeopardy, and that simply means you can not be charged twice for the same crime. It is perfectly possible to charge someone with Murder 1 _and_ manslaughter. As for the baby, it was a fetus until from his mothers womb it was untimely rip’d. A fetus past the date of the quickening. After that point, it was a baby. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2004, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fetus-cut-from-mother-kidnapping-or-theft/280452/25 "2004-12-19T14:02:02Z")
> [@erislover](#): > > For my part, if the woman intended to follow through with the pregnancy, then it was murder/kidnapping/whatever; if not, then whatever seems appropriate. If the woman intended to carry the child to term, then IMO we should consider that unborn a person in the sense that taking it is kidnapping and destroying it is murder. If the woman did not intend to, then the unborn is irrelevant. Pretend an organ was stolen, I don’t know. > > Wicked gross. Why would the mother’s intentions change the nature of the being in her womb? Or do you mean this purely from a practical / legal perspective? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2004, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fetus-cut-from-mother-kidnapping-or-theft/280452/26 "2004-12-19T16:43:47Z")
The fact that it was out of the womb and alive made it a baby. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2004, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fetus-cut-from-mother-kidnapping-or-theft/280452/27 "2004-12-19T21:18:38Z")
Right. And the second before this charming extrication occurred, it was something different, eh? No need to argue that the mother’s rights superseded the unborn’s–no, it flat out was _not_ a baby. Until a second later. It transmogrified into one by virtue finding a new address, outside of Mom’s womb. Makes perfect sense. ---
**Author:** ![tiny\_ham](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a183cd/32.png) [@tiny\_ham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tiny_ham)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2004, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fetus-cut-from-mother-kidnapping-or-theft/280452/28 "2004-12-19T21:47:59Z")
Diogenes, I see what you’re saying, but doesn’t this feed the pro-life argument that saying it’s not a baby is just a matter of convenience to quell the conscience? Babies have been born and lived at six months gestation. They’ve also been aborted at that point in their development. Are we getting to the point where “if I want to keep it, it’s a baby, if I want to abort it, it’s a parasite/clump of cells/tumor”? (I’m honestly asking these questions to sort out my own feelings) ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2004, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fetus-cut-from-mother-kidnapping-or-theft/280452/29 "2004-12-19T22:45:19Z")
There are two definitions for baby at [dictionary.com](http://dictionary.com). 1: A very young child. An infant. 2: An unborn child. A fetus. During all points at which a baby is inside a woman’s body, it is a fetus. Once it is outside the body, having been born, it is an infant. Being born seperates one from another. That said, there are several graduating marks from ‘random cells’ to ‘infant’. I believe, roughly, fertilization, implantation, quickening, and then viable outside the mother’s body. There is no question that if a fetus is viable outside the mother’s body, it can be called an infant as soon as it is born. Before that point, there are questions. The supreme court chose the quickening as a dividing point. It’s as reasonable an arbirtary point as any. So. Baby at any point. Fetus before being born, either infant or unviable fetus after being born. Right? ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2004, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fetus-cut-from-mother-kidnapping-or-theft/280452/30 "2004-12-19T22:49:00Z")
I should add that, in the past, it has been perfectly acceptable to leave born infants on rocks to die of exposure. It was claimed they didn’t get souls until they were two years old, anyhow. Isn’t that why baptism happens a time after birth, to make sure the baby will survive? Think _clearly_, people. ---
**Author:** ![borschevsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/97f17d/32.png) [@borschevsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/borschevsky)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2004, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fetus-cut-from-mother-kidnapping-or-theft/280452/31 "2004-12-20T00:08:45Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > Right. And the second before this charming extrication occurred, it was something different, eh? No need to argue that the mother’s rights superseded the unborn’s–no, it flat out was _not_ a baby. Until a second later. It transmogrified into one by virtue finding a new address, outside of Mom’s womb. Makes perfect sense. Obviously I can’t speak for **Diogenes** , but he made no comment about anything prior to the “charming extraction.” Saying that being out of the womb made it a baby does not imply that being inside the womb made it not a baby. It is possible to have the opinion that “out of the womb and alive” is a sufficient condition for “babyhood,” but not a necessary one. ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2004, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fetus-cut-from-mother-kidnapping-or-theft/280452/32 "2004-12-20T01:32:21Z")
I’d always heard that genetic material (organs etc) can’t be considered as property taken in a theft because they have no monetary value. Is that true or do I watch too much _Law and Order_? If so, would a fetus be considered like an organ until it breathes air, and then as a baby? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2004, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fetus-cut-from-mother-kidnapping-or-theft/280452/33 "2004-12-20T01:43:53Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > Right. And the second before this charming extrication occurred, it was something different, eh? No need to argue that the mother’s rights superseded the unborn’s–no, it flat out was _not_ a baby. Until a second later. It transmogrified into one by virtue finding a new address, outside of Mom’s womb. Makes perfect sense. Legally, that’s correct. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2004, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fetus-cut-from-mother-kidnapping-or-theft/280452/34 "2004-12-20T02:09:53Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > So. Baby at any point. Fetus before being born, either infant or unviable fetus after being born. Right? Yes but I would replace ‘unviable fetus’ with ‘stillborn baby’ or the more general ‘dead baby’. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2004, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fetus-cut-from-mother-kidnapping-or-theft/280452/35 "2004-12-21T01:22:46Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Legally, that’s correct. No, the legal position is a bit incoherent. An unborn entity can be murdered, for example (e.g., Connor Peterson). That same child, killed in an abortion clinic, is a blob of tissue. And legally, Dred Scott had no rights as a human being. So, our legal system is certainly capable of some majestic decisions. Interestingly, even the left-wing columnists [Anna Quindlen](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6542344/site/newsweek/) and [Richard Cohen](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A62348-2004Dec13.html) have developed a certain ambivalence over the abortion-on-demand-without-question philosophy. The unnegotiable, that never-to-be-compromised rock-hard line, has suddenly become, well, at least a little blurred, just a bit _squishy_, if you know what I mean. Very interesting indeed. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2004, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fetus-cut-from-mother-kidnapping-or-theft/280452/36 "2004-12-21T01:35:46Z")
> [@borschevsky](#): > > Obviously I can’t speak for **Diogenes** , but he made no comment about anything prior to the “charming extraction.” Saying that being out of the womb made it a baby does not imply that being inside the womb made it not a baby. It is possible to have the opinion that “out of the womb and alive” is a sufficient condition for “babyhood,” but not a necessary one. This is pedantic nonsense. All live beings are either born or unborn, right? If saying, “The fact that it was out of the womb and alive made it a baby,” does not imply that being unborn precludes that noble status of babyhood, then it is a rather pointless statement, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![mike1dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@mike1dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mike1dog)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2004, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fetus-cut-from-mother-kidnapping-or-theft/280452/37 "2004-12-21T01:39:13Z")
Saying the baby isn’t a baby because she was cut from her mothers womb is the same as saying my nephew isn’t a baby because he was delivered by C-section. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2004, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fetus-cut-from-mother-kidnapping-or-theft/280452/38 "2004-12-21T02:45:42Z")
Treis, I wouldn’t say ‘stillborn baby’ or ‘dead baby’ because I was trying to more precisely define the term ‘baby’. The term ‘baby’ can be a fetus or an infant. An infant is only an infant once it becomes a child in the earliest portion of life, that is, is born in one manner or another, alive. So, that the baby was out of the womb and alive made it an infant. Sound good? ---
**Author:** ![Chotii](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/71e660/32.png) [@Chotii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chotii)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2004, 9:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fetus-cut-from-mother-kidnapping-or-theft/280452/39 "2004-12-21T09:23:42Z")
The odd thing about it is this: news articles (cnn, fox, etc) were still referring to the child as a fetus 4 days later when she had been recovered, taken to a hospital, and reunited with her father. I cannot justify this at all. My twins were born at 34 weeks by cesarean. They were never referred to as ‘fetus’ afterward. ---
**Author:** ![mike1dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@mike1dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mike1dog)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2004, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fetus-cut-from-mother-kidnapping-or-theft/280452/40 "2004-12-22T00:39:15Z")
All of this is probably moot however, since the woman the baby was removed from died, I think the charge will be murder. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fetus-cut-from-mother-kidnapping-or-theft/280452.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fetus-cut-from-mother-kidnapping-or-theft/280452.md?page=3)